Nonduality and choice.

[Iamit]

We are raised by our caretakers to believe that we are responsible for our actions and can choose how to act. Legal systems are based on that idea, and behaviour that is deemed by some implied social majority/mainstream convention to be unacceptable (but within the law) is condemned by public opinion/media.

Another challenging idea that comes from non duality is that responsible separate people with choice are only an appearance of difference where there is no difference whatsoever. Some react to this by asserting that one can therefore do whatever one likes but of course that misses the point because there is no-one who can do anything including choosing to do as they like.

So if there is no 'who', what does decide what actually appears to happen in terms of behaviour? Some might say a personal god or such like who granted free will. Non Duality comes up the the idea of an automatic balancing system (see symbiosis) on the scale of the totality of the manifestation without which there would be no manifestation.

[FallingLeaves]

So if there is no 'who', what does decide what actually appears to happen in terms of behaviour? Some might say a personal god or such like who granted free will. Non Duality comes up the the idea of an automatic balancing system (see symbiosis) on the scale of the totality of the manifestation without which there would be no manifestation.

why does one have to know the answer to such questions? Why can one not just say 'it just is?'

[Ground]

We are raised by our caretakers to believe that we are responsible for our actions and can choose how to act. Legal systems are based on that idea, and behaviour that is deemed by some implied social majority/mainstream convention to be unacceptable (but within the law) is condemned by public opinion/media.

Another challenging idea that comes from non duality is that responsible separate people with choice are only an appearance of difference where there is no difference whatsoever. Some react to this by asserting that one can therefore do whatever one likes but of course that misses the point because there is no-one who can do anything including choosing to do as they like.

So if there is no 'who', what does decide what actually appears to happen in terms of behaviour? Some might say a personal god or such like who granted free will. Non Duality comes up the the idea of an automatic balancing system (see symbiosis) on the scale of the totality of the manifestation without which there would be no manifestation.
you have to admit that your idea 'nonduality' is just an idea. I bet that once you leave this forum you can think rationally and act as is conventional in so called 'real life'. :wink:
you know that you can decide how to act and you will decide. And this possibility to decide how to act when there are different options to act is what is called responsibility. you may say ' I do not care about the consequences of the action I choose.' But still you are responsible for the consequences that you can know according to what is common conventional knowledge. So nonduality is a nice resort for vacation but real life is different.:wink:

Why should you act in nonduality? Activity is purposive and a purpose is not compatible with nonduality since in nonduality all is one (the same) and there is no reason to grasp at an object of purposive activity.

[Iamit]

why does one have to know the answer to such questions? Why can one not just say 'it just is?'

Hi Falling leaves. Its not necessary to know the answer for connection to Oneness for it must already be Oneness not knowing the answer.

:)

In this context it is of academic interest only. Some of us have minds that like to ask questions and explore with others to see if there is any explanation that resonates. Its an age old activity and was how news of the wheel spread:)

Some may now think thats not such a good thing:)

[HereAndNow]

So if there is no 'who', what does decide what actually appears to happen in terms of behaviour? Some might say a personal god or such like who granted free will. Non Duality comes up the the idea of an automatic balancing system (see symbiosis) on the scale of the totality of the manifestation without which there would be no manifestation.

I think no-one or nothing decides ... it all just happens.
Like you may ask who decides what shape one cloud is at a certain moment, and how this shape will change at the next moment, and to which direction the cloud moves.
But no-one decides that (or you can as well say that God (absolute, Universe etc) decides .. absolutely everything ... that would be exactly the same).
We are like clouds ... with some difference of course ... one of these differences being that we have an illusion of having a free will.

[Ground]

I think no-one or nothing decides ... it all just happens....
you are certainly doing a good job in your daily work :laughing7:

[eputkonen]

Non Duality comes up the the idea of an automatic balancing system (see symbiosis) on the scale of the totality of the manifestation without which there would be no manifestation.

Every choice you have ever made has been the Self. It is not automatic balancing, habit, a mechanism, etc. Nor is it predetermined, destiny, fate, etc. This is more of an improve...a one-man-show by the Self. The Self does this.

[iamthat]

Every choice you have ever made has been the Self. It is not automatic balancing, habit, a mechanism, etc. Nor is it predetermined, destiny, fate, etc. This is more of an improve...a one-man-show by the Self. The Self does this.

Agreed. To begin with it is the Self identified with personality that makes choices and experiences the consequences. Then the idea of a personal self is realised to be an illusion, but individualised consciousness remains. Even in the state of non-duality we still act through a particular body, all the time knowing that all is the Self and all action takes place in inaction. We simultaneously experience the absolute and the relative, and this is the paradox of non-duality.

Peace.

[Iamit]

Every choice you have ever made has been the Self. It is not automatic balancing, habit, a mechanism, etc. Nor is it predetermined, destiny, fate, etc. This is more of an improve...a one-man-show by the Self. The Self does this.

Yes one can see why that would be the case if the idea of Oneness as the only reality in the nonduality story is rejected, but if it is accepted as the only reality then who or what is the self?

:)

[eputkonen]

Yes one can see why that would be the case if the idea of Oneness as the only reality in the nonduality story is rejected, but if it is accepted as the only reality then who or what is the self?

:)

I say Self, but you say Oneness. Others might say Source. Others might just call it That.

[Iamit]

I say Self, but you say Oneness. Others might say Source. Others might just call it That.,

We use words here and words formally have a meaning. The words you mention do not have the same meaning.

[sky]

How can self be oneness ?

[Ground]

How can self be oneness ?
Since all phenonema are empty of true existence they are 'one' in the context of this emptiness. Just as a blue car and a blue shirt are 'one' in the context of being blue.

[sky]

Since all phenonema are empty of true existence they are 'one' in the context of this emptiness. Just as a blue car and a blue shirt are 'one' in the context of being blue.


Yes but I can't drive a shirt :D

[eputkonen]

,

We use words here and words formally have a meaning. The words you mention do not have the same meaning.

No word can capture Nonduality...not even Oneness. For every term has it's flaw and traps due to words being inherently dualistic (there are things that are it and are not it...to give meaning to the word). When talking about Nonduality, you can not use words in this way...because no dualistic word can convey Nonduality. At best, they can be used as pointers.

[eputkonen]

How can self be oneness ?

How can there be anything other than Self/Oneness?

There is only the ocean...whether or not waves claim individuality.

[sky]

How can there be anything other than Self/Oneness?

There is only the ocean...whether or not waves claim individuality.


Yes there can be something.... not-self.

[eputkonen]

Yes there can be something.... not-self.

Then that is duality...this is a nonduality forum topic, so you might be in the wrong place. :biggrin:

[Iamit]

No word can capture Nonduality...not even Oneness. For every term has it's flaw and traps due to words being inherently dualistic (there are things that are it and are not it...to give meaning to the word). When talking about Nonduality, you can not use words in this way...because no dualistic word can convey Nonduality. At best, they can be used as pointers.

The word Oneness has a meaning. From a non dual perspective it is used to describe a state of no difference or separation despite the very convincing solid looking appearance of difference.

[Ground]

Yes but I can't drive a shirt :D
That is why I said a blue car and a blue shirt are 'one' in the context of being blue. I did not say they're 'one' in the context of providing the function of driving.

[sky]

That is why I said a blue car and a blue shirt are 'one' in the context of being blue. I did not say they're 'one' in the context of providing the function of driving.

I didn't say you did say :smile:

[Ground]

I didn't say you did say :smile:
But your remark could be interpreted as if you missed the context of being 'one'.
So being 'one' can only be understood as a metaphorical linguistic expression in the context of a specific commonality of different entities, a kind of 'sameness in difference'.

[eputkonen]

The word Oneness has a meaning. From a non dual perspective it is used to describe a state of no difference or separation despite the very convincing solid looking appearance of difference.

And that is not quite true...of nonduality. It is not a state...nor a perspective. The separation is in the mind...not the appearance. What we see is nonduality itself...there never was duality. Duality is a figment of our minds.

[Iamit]

And that is not quite true...of nonduality. It is not a state...nor a perspective. The separation is in the mind...not the appearance. What we see is nonduality itself...there never was duality. Duality is a figment of our minds.

I share that view but it does not mean that the word Oneness has no meaning.