Cultivating and Uncovering Love.

[Joe Mc]

Listening recently to some 'neo advaitin' teachers, who say that meditation is not needed and in fact it is a hindrance to awakening. It feels to me like a partial truth which they never fully explain. Like for example there is one teacher who speaks alot about 'Huangpo' who was a Chinese Zen Master, who's writings they say are very direct and very close or accurate to what he actually said as they were written down on the day by a scribe.

What the Neo advaitin teacher never says is that Huangpo probably had meditated for over 30 years or more by the time he gave these inspirational talks ? Then he always goes on to say that meditation is not going to help etc. Also, with someone like the great Advaitin Master Ramana Maharshi who had a spontaneous awakening when he was 16 years of age and left home soon after. He sat in caves etc. for years on end, cross legged as if he was absorbing or integrating the awakening..he didn't just go on the teaching circuit as lots of 'Neo Advaitin' teachers do. It might even be said that he was refining his initial awakening through meditation, so again this question about meditation arises, if it is useful or if it is not in relation to Advaita Vedanta.

Without being disrespectful, I have to say that i get the feeling now, that some of the many 'Neo Advaitin Teachers' have only a philosophical viewpoint on Non-duality which is usually is very appealing at least to a curious seeker and one's own intellect but lacks the dynamic of 'Love' which a meditation like the Metta Bhavana encourages and cultivates ? Perhaps the new Advaitic movement mostly just gets a philosophical understanding of emptiness or non duality which however comforting and peaceful, is in my experience so far, only partial ? The dynamic of embracing life on a vibrant emotional level with a knowledge of emptiness doesn't come across alot with these teachers ?

So perhaps they forget to return to the market place ?The market place being the symbol for life itself as depicted in the sequence of paintings called the 'Ox Herding' paintings we find in Zen ? As the Zen saying also says, at the outset ..Rivers are Rivers, then they become something else, and in the end they become Rivers again, meaning that life goes on too and we are encouraged to engage with it dynamically not in some loose philosophical way.

For example we hear a child's cry for help, we spontaneous go to their aid through instinctual caring or compassion, does it matter that the act of love in this case is empty of inherent existence ? That nobody is crying and nobody is saving the child ? That may be the case philosophically that nobody is really there and that is were I'm feeling some of these guys are, they are trapped inside a philosophy more than an awakened reality ? Thanks for listening.

[jimrich]

Joe Mc: Listening recently to some 'neo advaitin' teachers, who say that meditation is not needed and in fact it is a hindrance to awakening. It feels to me like a partial truth which they never fully explain.
Jim: I don't know if it is a hindrance but, IMO, it is not necessary since you already are that or the reality but you may not know it for now. I think they mean that so long as a seeker BELIEVES that they are not the real deal and still believe that they are a separate person or self, which is a wrong identity, they may use meditation and lots of other techniques to get to or become what the seeker already is.

Joe Mc:Then he always goes on to say that meditation is not going to help etc.
Jim: I'd now say that, if you want to meditate, do it. If not, don't bother - you are still you either way.

Joe Mc: For example we hear a child's cry for help, we spontaneous go to their aid through instinctual caring or compassion, does it matter that the act of love in this case is empty of inherent existence ? That nobody is crying and nobody is saving the child ? That may be the case philosophically that nobody is really there and that is were I'm feeling some of these guys are, they are trapped inside a philosophy more than an awakened reality ? Thanks for listening.

Jim: I don't know where these ideas about nobody and nothing come from but I am the Source and as the source, I, the source (in the form of a baby), am crying and then I, the source (in the form of jim), am hearing it and I, the source, am responding in whatever way I, the source, sees fit. If the source becomes a house fire, the source (as a victim) calls for help, then the source (as a fireman) responds and saves itself (the victim) from itself (the fire)! The Source wanted a new president so the source (as Trump) ran for the office. The source (as the people) voted Trump in and then the source (as some other people) became enraged and made a fuss. The source (as Trump and his people) laughed it all off while the Source (as the unhappy folks) continues to fight WITH ITSELF (as the Trump folks!) Get it? There is only Source or Self in all that there is and all that ever happens or doesn't happen. If a cop pulls me over and gives me a ticket which makes me angry, its the source giving itself a ticket and then getting upset with itself for getting a ticket from itself!
It is, was and always will be the Self or source doing and being everything that happens or doesn't happen in the play of life. There is no "separate person/me" doing anything because it's the source or Self that is apparently happening everywhere. IMO, much of the terminology of current teachings is incomplete, inaccurate or misleading due to semantic issues.
Ramana's entire teaching was about: who am I? and he often pointed to the fact that there is only the Source or Self and nothing else so, while many of us may take our selves to be limited persons/egos/'me's, etc. out doing stuff, the overlooked fact is that we are the Self, Source or whatever name/label fits it.
"I am That" is a summation of this fact that is easily overlooked once we are programmed to BELIEVE that we are simply temporary animals that are born and will die. Not much in our human lives ever invites us to seriously LOOK to see who and what we really are and some non-dual teachings can make us get lost in concepts and practices that fail to help us stop and see/know who we really are - we are not a separate 'me' or self-identity struggling against other separate entities.
If you want to get passed all the practices and methods such as meditation and chanting, I'd recommend looking for John Wheeler, Jim Newman or Tony Parsons on line. There are a lot of spokespersons out there who can show you how to know and accept who you are RIGHT NOW - just as you are - WITHOUT practices and techniques. This is it and you are it - RIGHT NOW! Nothing is wrong and nothing is missing! :hug:

[Joe Mc]

Joe Mc: Listening recently to some 'neo advaitin' teachers, who say that meditation is not needed and in fact it is a hindrance to awakening. It feels to me like a partial truth which they never fully explain.
Jim: I don't know if it is a hindrance but, IMO, it is not necessary since you already are that or the reality but you may not know it for now. I think they mean that so long as a seeker BELIEVES that they are not the real deal and still believe that they are a separate person or self, which is a wrong identity, they may use meditation and lots of other techniques to get to or become what the seeker already is.

Joe Mc:Then he always goes on to say that meditation is not going to help etc.
Jim: I'd now say that, if you want to meditate, do it. If not, don't bother - you are still you either way.

Joe Mc: For example we hear a child's cry for help, we spontaneous go to their aid through instinctual caring or compassion, does it matter that the act of love in this case is empty of inherent existence ? That nobody is crying and nobody is saving the child ? That may be the case philosophically that nobody is really there and that is were I'm feeling some of these guys are, they are trapped inside a philosophy more than an awakened reality ? Thanks for listening.

Jim: I don't know where these ideas about nobody and nothing come from but I am the Source and as the source, I, the source (in the form of a baby), am crying and then I, the source (in the form of jim), am hearing it and I, the source, am responding in whatever way I, the source, sees fit. If the source becomes a house fire, the source (as a victim) calls for help, then the source (as a fireman) responds and saves itself (the victim) from itself (the fire)! The Source wanted a new president so the source (as Trump) ran for the office. The source (as the people) voted Trump in and then the source (as some other people) became enraged and made a fuss. The source (as Trump and his people) laughed it all off while the Source (as the unhappy folks) continues to fight WITH ITSELF (as the Trump folks!) Get it? There is only Source or Self in all that there is and all that ever happens or doesn't happen. If a cop pulls me over and gives me a ticket which makes me angry, its the source giving itself a ticket and then getting upset with itself for getting a ticket from itself!
It is, was and always will be the Self or source doing and being everything that happens or doesn't happen in the play of life. There is no "separate person/me" doing anything because it's the source or Self that is apparently happening everywhere. IMO, much of the terminology of current teachings is incomplete, inaccurate or misleading due to semantic issues.
Ramana's entire teaching was about: who am I? and he often pointed to the fact that there is only the Source or Self and nothing else so, while many of us may take our selves to be limited persons/egos/'me's, etc. out doing stuff, the overlooked fact is that we are the Self, Source or whatever name/label fits it.
"I am That" is a summation of this fact that is easily overlooked once we are programmed to BELIEVE that we are simply temporary animals that are born and will die. Not much in our human lives ever invites us to seriously LOOK to see who and what we really are and some non-dual teachings can make us get lost in concepts and practices that fail to help us stop and see/know who we really are - we are not a separate 'me' or self-identity struggling against other separate entities.
If you want to get passed all the practices and methods such as meditation and chanting, I'd recommend looking for John Wheeler, Jim Newman or Tony Parsons on line. There are a lot of spokespersons out there who can show you how to know and accept who you are RIGHT NOW - just as you are - WITHOUT practices and techniques. This is it and you are it - RIGHT NOW! Nothing is wrong and nothing is missing! :hug:

Jim, thanks. I get what your saying but it seems to me, the danger with its 'All Source' is that it seems to deny relative values. So an empty stomach is the same as a full stomach, it's all Source and also where is the impetus, motivation, volition, I'm sure there are 100s of other terms, where is the impetus to move from bad to good, from hate to love, from negative to positive.

What would be the point if it's all Source, one position ie starvation would have equal validation with another ie. full stomach, hunger satiated. Surely hatred is part of an 'unawakened state' and to say it is Source or God seeking something is a bit of a cop out to me ? Replying to you however, has brought up a question in my mind this very moment.

Perhaps the Seeker, me is not responsible for other people's suffering, or is unconcerned with it ? Perhaps acknowledging suffering in the world is part of a guilt trip created by such things as Christianity etc. or modern politics ?

I get that Liberation is not adequately describable with words. There is pointing with words and concepts and emotions and that is all. But why is there so much pointing going on ? Surely with so many people pointing someone is going to be poked in the eye ? lol. Very interesting Jim, thanks for your reply. I saw Tony Parsons a couple of times in London. His style as you know yourself is very non compromising and he expresses the fact that you cannot speak about it, such a paradox. There are other good teacher's too out there as you know. Joe.

[jimrich]

Jim, thanks. I get what your saying but it seems to me, the danger with its 'All Source' is that it seems to deny relative values.
It may "seem" so to the personal self but not to Source. Source INCLUDES the "relative". Nathan Gil says there is only Awareness (Source) and the contents of Awareness (the relative) which is ALSO Awareness! Reality in it's apparent two forms as Awareness and Contents - Absolute and Relative but NOT TWO! The mind finds this very difficult to grasp.
So an empty stomach is the same as a full stomach,
How does that work? How are they the "same"? They are both within and of Source but definitely NOT the "same". And empty stomach is an empty stomach and a full stomach is a full stomach. There may be one stomach but it's not full/empty simultaneously. When Source, in the apparent form of a stomach, is full - it's full and when empty - its empty!

it's all Source
True!
and also where is the impetus, motivation, volition,
Source IS the impetus, motivation and volition plus every other apparent thing and condition, etc. It's all Source. Source does NOT deprive any "apparent" person of motivations or volition, etc. Source, in the form of a 'me'/person can express: impetus,motivation and volition all that it likes.

I'm sure there are 100s of other terms, where is the impetus to move from bad to good, from hate to love, from negative to positive.
That all comes from and IS the Source but a separate person may not see that and may feel threatened or deprived of their own personal intentions, desires, motivations, rewards, goals, duties, etc. You, Source, move from bad to good, from hate to love and from negative to positive. It's all you, Source, doing these things.

What would be the point if it's all Source, one position ie starvation would have equal validation with another ie. full stomach, hunger satiated.
Do you, Source, really see everything as "equal"? If that were true, why do you, the Source, create all these different and not-equal things in your Cosmos such as: different fish, plants, animals, weather conditions, worlds, suns, etc.? Why not just make one: fish, plant, animal, weather, world, sun, etc.? Source is both one and many. Wouldn't you, Source, prefer to make a lot of different "stuff" since you are UNLIMITED?

Surely hatred is part of an 'unawakened state' and to say it is Source or God seeking something is a bit of a cop out to me ?
LOL, I am wondering why you put that "?" mark at the end of a statement that is not a question.
Source, in the form of Joe Mc, is expressing an opinion about: hatred, unawakened states, god, cop out, and the 'me', etc.

Replying to you however, has brought up a question in my mind this very moment. Perhaps the Seeker, me is not responsible for other people's suffering, or is unconcerned with it ? Perhaps acknowledging suffering in the world is part of a guilt trip created by such things as Christianity etc. or modern politics ?
I don't see a question there but all of that is Source thinking and speaking in the form of a person known as Joe Mc. I, jim, would guess that Source has its own, unique reasons and purposes for: suffering, responsibility, concern, guilt trips, Christianity and politics, etc. that I, jim, don't fully understand right now. All that I, jim, can say is that it just is and I am not going to question it at this time.

I get that Liberation is not adequately describable with words. There is pointing with words and concepts and emotions and that is all. But why is there so much pointing going on ?
Because there is Seeking going on. It's the "Play of Life". ~ Nathan Gil
Source appears as Seekers and also as Teachers/Spokes persons in the Play.

Surely with so many people pointing someone is going to be poked in the eye ? lol. Very interesting Jim, thanks for your reply. I saw Tony Parsons a couple of times in London. His style as you know yourself is very non compromising and he expresses the fact that you cannot speak about it, such a paradox. There are other good teacher's too out there as you know. Joe.
Tony (and many of his "students", such as Jim Newman and Richard Sylvester,) doesn't call himself a "teacher" which is what I love about him. They just point to what is and allow the "Seeker" to find the Source or Reality as best the Seeker can. I believe that Liberation can be adequately described with words, assuming one can find the words! I like stuff like: Source, Absolute, It, This, That, Real, Energy, Love, Peace, Essence, Presence, Awareness, Consciousness, Wholeness, Aliveness, Me, You, I and a whole bunch of other words that sometimes come from Source itself. I don't see myself as Liberated or Awake but I definitely see that Source is all that there REALLY is.
Source is sitting here typing this commentary. Source hears the cars gong by, the ringing in these ears, the tingling in these toes, the thoughts for the next word on this page, the feelings of generosity and love to be able and willing to write this stuff. Source is both doing all of this and IS this. I hope that doesn't seem arrogant but if it is, blame Source.
Re: "I saw Tony Parsons a couple of times in London."
I would love to attend his meetings but only get his Youtube videos over here. His messages hit me deeper and deeper as the reality of Source comes up stronger and clearer for me. I also follow Nathan Gil, Lisa Cairns and a lot of other "pure" non-dualists. They are all quite a threat to the personal 'me'/ego! Oh well.......... :hug3:

[Starman]

I think that every religion or spiritual path highlights a particular aspect of spirituality; it would be a welcome
if all of them had unconditional love at their core but that is not the case. Most encompass some sort of loving way,
but too often only for those who accept their doctrine.

Advaita seems to strongly relate to the Jnana yoga process, which is highly philosophical and more cognitive (head)
than it is affective (emotional). As stated earlier I think every religion highlight a particular aspect, while acknowledging
all the other aspects as being connected.

Buddhism for instance highlights compassion and impermanence, while Christianity highlights sacrifice and a new covenant.
Judaism is all about the law, etc., and they all encompass other aspects of spirituality but you can find a dominant theme
in most religions and spiritual groups.

The thing about non-duality is that it is highly subjective but it is universal and not personal. So there is this impersonal
existence which defies any and all parameters. But the experience of love does come when we hold a loving philosophy;
gnosis occurs in many different ways and many of those ways I would not necessarily embrace.

People choose what fits their personality and sometimes it seems as if the path chose you instead of you having chose a path.
Further a particular path may only be a temporary stepping stone to another more amiable path; it served a purpose once but
now maybe it is time to move on. In my opinion everything serves the One and I have no clue in which way, or how some certain
things can be considered service to an unconditional loving source. But my faith is strong.:smile:

[Shivani Devi]

Namaste.

Brahman is a totally intangible and unimaginable concept for any level of the mind, intellect or conscious awareness to grasp.

Self-inquiry and Jnana Yoga can only lead one to the door of the "I Am"...it may even open it to reveal what exists beyond, but it is up to the aspirant to traverse through it to reach the 'other side' of perception.

No book, no philosophy, no amount of knowledge can bring enlightenment and that is why 'advaita' is usually followed very closely by the word 'vedanta' which basically means 'after this, you're on your own'.

The way through that door is by doing yoga!

I'm not talking about physical postures here, but other paths which take over where the path of Jnana Yoga ends...for some, this is Raja Yoga (Meditation)...for others, it is Bhakti Yoga (love)...for others it is Kundalini Yoga or Tantra Yoga...whatever it takes the individual person to transcend the mind...transcend learning and knowledge about 'what is'.

Like Starman said, people will choose (or the path chooses them) whatever fits their personality and seeing as how everybody's personality is different, then every path will be different...even though this is all mithya as well.

However, a bit of background info about Adi Shankaracharya...the first 'Jnana Yogi':

https://vedanet.com/2012/06/13/the-fifteenfold-non-dualistic-raja-yoga-of-shankaracharya/

[Shivani Devi]

For example we hear a child's cry for help, we spontaneous go to their aid through instinctual caring or compassion, does it matter that the act of love in this case is empty of inherent existence ? That nobody is crying and nobody is saving the child ?

Precisely. Everything is subjectively relative, so it can have no bearing on that which is beyond our mere experience of it, until there is no more experience.

[sky]

Namaste.

Brahman is a totally intangible and unimaginable concept for any level of the mind, intellect or conscious awareness to grasp.

Self-inquiry and Jnana Yoga can only lead one to the door of the "I Am"...it may even open it to reveal what exists beyond, but it is up to the aspirant to traverse through it to reach the 'other side' of perception.

No book, no philosophy, no amount of knowledge can bring enlightenment and that is why 'advaita' is usually followed very closely by the word 'vedanta' which basically means 'after this, you're on your own'.

The way through that door is by doing yoga!

I'm not talking about physical postures here, but other paths which take over where the path of Jnana Yoga ends...for some, this is Raja Yoga (Meditation)...for others, it is Bhakti Yoga (love)...for others it is Kundalini Yoga or Tantra Yoga...whatever it takes the individual person to transcend the mind...transcend learning and knowledge about 'what is'.

Like Starman said, people will choose (or the path chooses them) whatever fits their personality and seeing as how everybody's personality is different, then every path will be different...even though this is all mithya as well.

However, a bit of background info about Adi Shankaracharya...the first 'Jnana Yogi':

https://vedanet.com/2012/06/13/the-fifteenfold-non-dualistic-raja-yoga-of-shankaracharya/






' self-inquiry and Jnana Yoga can only lead one to the door of the "I Am"...it may even open it to reveal what exists beyond '


What existed before you realised ' I am ' ?
When do we start to be aware of this ' I am ' ?


*I am not actually the "I am" but rather THAT which is aware of the "I am , before I realised ' I am ' is pure awareness...

[Shivani Devi]

' self-inquiry and Jnana Yoga can only lead one to the door of the "I Am"...it may even open it to reveal what exists beyond '


What existed before you realised ' I am ' ?
When do we start to be aware of this ' I am ' ?


*I am not actually the "I am" but rather THAT which is aware of the "I am , before I realised ' I am ' is pure awareness...I'll just let philosoraptor deal with this tonight..all hail the mighty philosoraptor!

https://cdn.meme.am/instances/12362267.jpg

[Joe Mc]

It may "seem" so to the personal self but not to Source. Source INCLUDES the "relative". Nathan Gil says there is only Awareness (Source) and the contents of Awareness (the relative) which is ALSO Awareness! Reality in it's apparent two forms as Awareness and Contents - Absolute and Relative but NOT TWO! The mind finds this very difficult to grasp.

How does that work? How are they the "same"? They are both within and of Source but definitely NOT the "same". And empty stomach is an empty stomach and a full stomach is a full stomach. There may be one stomach but it's not full/empty simultaneously. When Source, in the apparent form of a stomach, is full - it's full and when empty - its empty!


True!

Source IS the impetus, motivation and volition plus every other apparent thing and condition, etc. It's all Source. Source does NOT deprive any "apparent" person of motivations or volition, etc. Source, in the form of a 'me'/person can express: impetus,motivation and volition all that it likes.


That all comes from and IS the Source but a separate person may not see that and may feel threatened or deprived of their own personal intentions, desires, motivations, rewards, goals, duties, etc. You, Source, move from bad to good, from hate to love and from negative to positive. It's all you, Source, doing these things.


Do you, Source, really see everything as "equal"? If that were true, why do you, the Source, create all these different and not-equal things in your Cosmos such as: different fish, plants, animals, weather conditions, worlds, suns, etc.? Why not just make one: fish, plant, animal, weather, world, sun, etc.? Source is both one and many. Wouldn't you, Source, prefer to make a lot of different "stuff" since you are UNLIMITED?


LOL, I am wondering why you put that "?" mark at the end of a statement that is not a question.
Source, in the form of Joe Mc, is expressing an opinion about: hatred, unawakened states, god, cop out, and the 'me', etc.


I don't see a question there but all of that is Source thinking and speaking in the form of a person known as Joe Mc. I, jim, would guess that Source has its own, unique reasons and purposes for: suffering, responsibility, concern, guilt trips, Christianity and politics, etc. that I, jim, don't fully understand right now. All that I, jim, can say is that it just is and I am not going to question it at this time.


Because there is Seeking going on. It's the "Play of Life". ~ Nathan Gil
Source appears as Seekers and also as Teachers/Spokes persons in the Play.


Tony (and many of his "students", such as Jim Newman and Richard Sylvester,) doesn't call himself a "teacher" which is what I love about him. They just point to what is and allow the "Seeker" to find the Source or Reality as best the Seeker can. I believe that Liberation can be adequately described with words, assuming one can find the words! I like stuff like: Source, Absolute, It, This, That, Real, Energy, Love, Peace, Essence, Presence, Awareness, Consciousness, Wholeness, Aliveness, Me, You, I and a whole bunch of other words that sometimes come from Source itself. I don't see myself as Liberated or Awake but I definitely see that Source is all that there REALLY is.
Source is sitting here typing this commentary. Source hears the cars gong by, the ringing in these ears, the tingling in these toes, the thoughts for the next word on this page, the feelings of generosity and love to be able and willing to write this stuff. Source is both doing all of this and IS this. I hope that doesn't seem arrogant but if it is, blame Source.
Re: "I saw Tony Parsons a couple of times in London."
I would love to attend his meetings but only get his Youtube videos over here. His messages hit me deeper and deeper as the reality of Source comes up stronger and clearer for me. I also follow Nathan Gil, Lisa Cairns and a lot of other "pure" non-dualists. They are all quite a threat to the personal 'me'/ego! Oh well.......... :hug3:

Jim, many thanks for your insightful and detailed reply. I enjoyed reading it and thank you for taking the time. I don't have alot to say at the moment, but i hope you don't mind me replying, possiblely at some point in the future, to this truthful and 'rich' post , indeed. Many regards, Joe (Ireland).

[Joe Mc]

Namaste.
Brahman is a totally intangible and unimaginable concept for any level of the mind, intellect or conscious awareness to grasp.

Self-inquiry and Jnana Yoga can only lead one to the door of the "I Am"...it may even open it to reveal what exists beyond, but it is up to the aspirant to traverse through it to reach the 'other side' of perception.

No book, no philosophy, no amount of knowledge can bring enlightenment and that is why 'advaita' is usually followed very closely by the word 'vedanta' which basically means 'after this, you're on your own'.

The way through that door is by doing [I]yoga!


I'm not talking about physical postures here, but other paths which take over where the path of Jnana Yoga ends...for some, this is Raja Yoga (Meditation)...for others, it is Bhakti Yoga (love)...for others it is Kundalini Yoga or Tantra Yoga...whatever it takes the individual person to transcend the mind...transcend learning and knowledge about 'what is'.

Like Starman said, people will choose (or the path chooses them) whatever fits their personality and seeing as how everybody's personality is different, then every path will be different...even though this is all mithya as well.

However, a bit of background info about Adi Shankaracharya...the first 'Jnana Yogi':

https://vedanet.com/2012/06/13/the-fifteenfold-non-dualistic-raja-yoga-of-shankaracharya/[/QUOTE]

This is a very nice post Necro thank you for sharing. It makes me think of the
cosmos like a mirror shining back on life..i cant explain it too well in words, probably the reason why i sing alot and write poetry..as i like those forms of expression. Yes life is a reflection of cosmic principles being played out against the back-drop of endless love ? What we call love. :)

[Joe Mc]

Namaste.
Brahman is a totally intangible and unimaginable concept for any level of the mind, intellect or conscious awareness to grasp.

Self-inquiry and Jnana Yoga can only lead one to the door of the "I Am"...it may even open it to reveal what exists beyond, but it is up to the aspirant to traverse through it to reach the 'other side' of perception.

No book, no philosophy, no amount of knowledge can bring enlightenment and that is why 'advaita' is usually followed very closely by the word 'vedanta' which basically means 'after this, you're on your own'.

The way through that door is by doing [I]yoga!


I'm not talking about physical postures here, but other paths which take over where the path of Jnana Yoga ends...for some, this is Raja Yoga (Meditation)...for others, it is Bhakti Yoga (love)...for others it is Kundalini Yoga or Tantra Yoga...whatever it takes the individual person to transcend the mind...transcend learning and knowledge about 'what is'.

Like Starman said, people will choose (or the path chooses them) whatever fits their personality and seeing as how everybody's personality is different, then every path will be different...even though this is all mithya as well.

However, a bit of background info about Adi Shankaracharya...the first 'Jnana Yogi':

https://vedanet.com/2012/06/13/the-fifteenfold-non-dualistic-raja-yoga-of-shankaracharya/

This is a very nice post Necro thank you for sharing. It makes me think of the
cosmos like a mirror shining back on life..i cant explain it too well in words, probably the reason why i sing alot and write poetry..as i like those forms of expression. Yes life is a reflection of cosmic principles being played out against the back-drop of endless love ? What we call love. :)[/QUOTE]

[jimrich]

Please do not see this as a challenge, attack or insult...........
' I am ' is pure awareness...
Is this your own, personal experience? Can you say or silently think/feel = "I am pure Awareness." ....or whatever term, spoken or silent, describes your own experience of That.... or are you repeating concepts that you learned from somewhere outside of your self?
Many folks can speak of non-duality, Advaita, the I am, Oneness, Unity, Nothing, Everything, the Absolute, Boundlessness in quite eloquent terms BUT very few can or will say what their own, personal experience of such things is so it causes me to wonder if these spokespersons have ever actually EXPERIENCED: That, It, the Absolute, non-dual, Boundless, Source, etc. Have you? :smile:

[jimrich]

Self-inquiry and Jnana Yoga can only lead one to the door of the "I Am"...it may even open it to reveal what exists beyond, but it is up to the aspirant to traverse through it to reach the 'other side' of perception.The teachers and spokespersons that I follow these days claim that this is it and that I (I almost wrote 'we') already are "there" - just as I am, right now. They say that there is no: path, door or a "beyond" - just this right here as it is NOW. I am "there"! If I sit here suspecting that I am not "there" yet and don't feel especially "enlightened" that is the Source, in the form of Jim, feeling unenlightened. All of this is Source or That JUST AS IT IS RIGHT NOW. So these teachers do not speak of = going somewhere, taking up a practice, like yoga or meditation, walking any path, sitting with a guru, reading such and such books or any thing other than to allow me to know that this is it just as it is and that I already am what so many others PROMISE I'll be or find if I follow a path, self inquire, meditate, enter an Ashram, find a guru, etc. I followed this "Who am I?" thing for many years but NEVER found the Source or Self but, listening to Tony Parsons and some other "here and now" teachers has shown me that I am That right now and have always been and always will be - just plain old, normal, sometimes dull, depressed, frightened, hungry, horny, bored or excited me - yet totally complete and whole just as I am - here and now. What a relief to be told that this is it and it's OK just as it is! All my life I believed that some day, if I was lucky, I might be "saved" and find a happier, more satisfying life somewhere and somehow never knowing or being told that THIS IS IT, JUST AS IT IS. LOL, I would not have believed nor accepting such a teaching back when I was young, angry, frightened and desperate for a solution to a miserable life. It would never have occurred to me that the life I was having was GOOD ENOUGH and that everything was OK just as it is.

No book, no philosophy, no amount of knowledge can bring enlightenment and that is why 'advaita' is usually followed very closely by the word 'vedanta' which basically means 'after this, you're on your own'.
Whew, I am so happy that some modern teachers have finally pointed out that there is no "after this", no "you" to get somewhere nor a "before this" but only this here and now so there is no path and no future to "hopefully" find. It's here - right now!

The way through that door is by doing yoga!
My teachers might say, "Do yoga or whatever you wish BUT it won't get you any closer to who and what you are RIGHT NOW!" You ARE that/this!

I'm not talking about physical postures here, but other paths which take over where the path of Jnana Yoga ends...for some, this is Raja Yoga (Meditation)...for others, it is Bhakti Yoga (love)...for others it is Kundalini Yoga or Tantra Yoga...whatever it takes the individual person to transcend the mind...transcend learning and knowledge about 'what is'.
Do all that stuff if you like but you already are "what is". You have become convinced, by other deluded folks, that you are NOT already "IT" so you may need to go on and on with practices and paths until it finally hits you that THIS IS IT and that there is no 'you' to get something or go somewhere - YOU ARE IT!

Like Starman said, people will choose (or the path chooses them) whatever fits their personality and seeing as how everybody's personality is different, then every path will be different...even though this is all mithya as well.
I am so very happy that the new teachers DO NOT talk about "paths" and personalities!
google these folks: John Wheeler, Jim Newman, Tony Parsons, Robert Wolfe, Natalie Gray, Charlie Hayes, Rupert Spira, Kenneth Madden, Richard Sylvester, Nathan Gil, Lisa Cairns, Mooji, Jeff Foster and each of those links will take you to even more pure non-duality spokespersons...........good luck

[sky]

Please do not see this as a challenge, attack or insult...........

Is this your own, personal experience? Can you say or silently think/feel = "I am pure Awareness." ....or whatever term, spoken or silent, describes your own experience of That.... or are you repeating concepts that you learned from somewhere outside of your self?
Many folks can speak of non-duality, Advaita, the I am, Oneness, Unity, Nothing, Everything, the Absolute, Boundlessness in quite eloquent terms BUT very few can or will say what their own, personal experience of such things is so it causes me to wonder if these spokespersons have ever actually EXPERIENCED: That, It, the Absolute, non-dual, Boundless, Source, etc. Have you? :smile:



Yes I have experienced ' Pure Awareness ' many times.:smile:

[Shivani Devi]

The teachers and spokespersons that I follow these days claim that this is it and that I (I almost wrote 'we') already are "there" - just as I am, right now. They say that there is no: path, door or a "beyond" - just this right here as it is NOW. I am "there"! If I sit here suspecting that I am not "there" yet and don't feel especially "enlightened" that is the Source, in the form of Jim, feeling unenlightened. All of this is Source or That JUST AS IT IS RIGHT NOW. So these teachers do not speak of = going somewhere, taking up a practice, like yoga or meditation, walking any path, sitting with a guru, reading such and such books or any thing other than to allow me to know that this is it just as it is and that I already am what so many others PROMISE I'll be or find if I follow a path, self inquire, meditate, enter an Ashram, find a guru, etc. I followed this "Who am I?" thing for many years but NEVER found the Source or Self but, listening to Tony Parsons and some other "here and now" teachers has shown me that I am That right now and have always been and always will be - just plain old, normal, sometimes dull, depressed, frightened, hungry, horny, bored or excited me - yet totally complete and whole just as I am - here and now. What a relief to be told that this is it and it's OK just as it is! All my life I believed that some day, if I was lucky, I might be "saved" and find a happier, more satisfying life somewhere and somehow never knowing or being told that THIS IS IT, JUST AS IT IS. LOL, I would not have believed nor accepting such a teaching back when I was young, angry, frightened and desperate for a solution to a miserable life. It would never have occurred to me that the life I was having was GOOD ENOUGH and that everything was OK just as it is.


Whew, I am so happy that some modern teachers have finally pointed out that there is no "after this", no "you" to get somewhere nor a "before this" but only this here and now so there is no path and no future to "hopefully" find. It's here - right now!


My teachers might say, "Do yoga or whatever you wish BUT it won't get you any closer to who and what you are RIGHT NOW!" You ARE that/this!


Do all that stuff if you like but you already are "what is". You have become convinced, by other deluded folks, that you are NOT already "IT" so you may need to go on and on with practices and paths until it finally hits you that THIS IS IT and that there is no 'you' to get something or go somewhere - YOU ARE IT!


I am so very happy that the new teachers DO NOT talk about "paths" and personalities!
google these folks: John Wheeler, Jim Newman, Tony Parsons, Robert Wolfe, Natalie Gray, Charlie Hayes, Rupert Spira, Kenneth Madden, Richard Sylvester, Nathan Gil, Lisa Cairns, Mooji, Jeff Foster and each of those links will take you to even more pure non-duality spokespersons...........good luckThank you Jim, but I guess this is the whole delineation between the 'new age gurus' and the 'old gurus'.

While you are busy studying all of those teachers, I study Patanjali, Swami Svatmarama, Adi Shankaracharya and others.

So, again, it all goes back to 'individual bent'.

If everybody has already realised they have achieved Samadhi and are ALREADY in that state from noble actions (possibly meditation) from a previous birth, then there is no need for any spiritual practice because they are already there. This is all well and good.

But what of those people who do not realise it? who are not there? who cannot see it? what of them?

No amount of saying 'you are that' is going to make them magically or miraculously realise it for themselves.

Some people require sadhana (spiritual practice) and some people do not. Never an agreement will be reached or never the twain shall meet.

I put my faith in those who started the whole thing off.

[Shivani Devi]

Let's just cut to the chase and put this VERY simply.

Jim = NEO Advaitin
Necro = Advaita Vedantin

Two entirely different schools of thought.

[jimrich]

Thank you Jim, but I guess this is the whole delineation between the 'new age gurus' and the 'old gurus'.
While you are busy studying all of those teachers, I study Patanjali, Swami Svatmarama, Adi Shankaracharya and others.
So, again, it all goes back to 'individual bent'.
I agree with you there and I've not met a single "new" guru who says that one system is BETTER than another. What they will say is that practices and methods are NOT NECESSARY but none of them say, "Don't do such and such."

If everybody has already realised they have achieved Samadhi and are ALREADY in that state from noble actions (possibly meditation) from a previous birth, then there is no need for any spiritual practice because they are already there.
The new teachers would say that "everybody" (whoever that is?) is already "there" (wherever that is?) - always were and always will be - thus no need to "practice", BUT some of us don't know that so we become "Seekers" who then go to find out that we always were and always will be the Infinite Source or whatever it's called. There is no requirement that a Seeker do or not do such and such.

But what of those people who do not realise it? who are not there? who cannot see it? what of them?
They, as the Infinite Supreme, just go on seeking or not seeking!

No amount of saying 'you are that' is going to make them magically or miraculously realise it for themselves.
Pointers are not meant to "miraculously" do anything! Pointers are simply offerings for whoever can use or grasp them. No demands or PROMISES!

Some people require sadhana (spiritual practice) and some people do not.
And so there are many pointers and systems for those who need or want them - or not. Ramana Maharshi made it clear that all of the scriptures and teachings were meant to WORK FOR a wide assortment of temperaments and Seekers.

Never an agreement will be reached or never the twain shall meet.
No need for an agreement! To each his own. There is no "twain" - just Infinite Oneness appearing as: "twain".

I put my faith in those who started the whole thing off.
Cool!

Jim = NEO Advaitin
Necro = Advaita Vedantin
Two entirely different schools of thought.
LOL, different yet EQUAL!

[Shivani Devi]

In a way, Jim it also has a lot to do with my whole 'religious conditioning' as well.

Not only am I an Advaitin, but I also happen to be a Hindu....I know, just more labels..but please bear with me here.

In the Hindu teachings, we are now in the age of Kali Yuga - the age of discord and disquiet.

It is much harder for those in this age to understand these principles and realise the truth than it was in any age which preceded it.

It is said that in Kali Yuga, people will all turn to these new-age teachings which are only watered down translations and opinions of the original material, bearing little or no relevance to it.

In Kali Yuga, people will believe they don't have to do anything to get enlightened because they 'already are'...but whether they are or not remains to be seen.

In Kali Yuga, teachings get corrupted, twisted and perverted because people will say "society has CHANGED and so the teachings must change to keep up and be more relevant in today's society"...however, the teachings are timeless. They apply to anybody, anywhere and any time.

People will say they are old and outdated and a whole new philosophy must be created. They will say that people have/are evolving and are much different now to how they were say, 500 years ago.

It is Kali Yuga, so how can humanity be evolving? seriously. It is said in the scriptures "in Kali Yuga, these scriptures will either be ignored or fiddled with SO much, they will bear little to no resemblance to the original document because this is what Kali Yuga does! It is what it's all about - people in their ignorance, thinking they know much better than the saints and sages of old because 'society has changed'...newsflash...no it hasn't.

So, I am just putting it down to being Kali Yuga now.

[jimrich]

So, I am....
Cool! So, who is this 'I'? ....Who are you? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Shivani Devi]

Cool! So, who is this 'I'? ....Who are you? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:I am whoever YOU think I am.

Now, finally got that sorted...am listening to shiva bhajans, can finally say 'don't care anymore', will write replies without the use of personal pronouns...can do so if it makes it more understandable and could write an essay like this... :D

Here, have kalabhairavashtakam:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsEqI1NZA-E