Freedom.

[Gem]

What are we free from?

[sound]

We are free from non-existence ...

[Miss Hepburn]

Hopefully, suffering and the delusion of separation.
Freedom from believing that what we see in this 3rd dimension is "real".

:smile:

[Gem]

Is it the 3rd dimension or just 3 dimensional?

I wonder what freedom means from the perspective of what is 'not free', so there must be some nature of shackle which inhibits to define 'not free', and I think I'm really asking what is the shackle?

[Silver]

selfishness / insecurity / greed?

[Miss Hepburn]

I wonder what freedom means from the perspective of what is 'not free', so there must be some nature of shackle which inhibits to define 'not free', and I think I'm really asking what is the shackle?
Oh, well, now you are making it more interesting. :wink:

What are the paper chains that keep some from Bliss.
What are the paperchains that keep some from perpetual joy or peace of mind and, especially, contentment, even in external issues as simple as someone denting their car or suddenly losing their income?
Or just simply sitting in peace and freedom while being in stillness- in prayer or meditation?

Their would be a list - and yet off the top - I'd say that list of fear, shame, guilt,
doubt, and more would boil down to what I'd call the Mind.
Others might say the Ego.
The dissolving of Ego, Mind, Lower Ego Self, to accept what Is,

That all is Love, Bliss, Holy and part of the Beloved Creator Who Is only Divine
Ecstasy; Infinite and Infinitesimal.

What would keep you personally from accepting True Freedom or the Ecstasy
that is all around you and in you, Gem?

You'll have your answer for each human being. No?

:hug2: Great thread.

[Gem]

Oh, well, now you are making it more interesting. :wink:

What are the paper chains that keep some from Bliss.
What are the paperchains that keep some from perpetual joy or peace of mind and, especially, contentment, even in external issues as simple as someone denting their car or suddenly losing their income?
Or just simply sitting in peace and freedom while being in stillness- in prayer or meditation?

Their would be a list - and yet off the top - I'd say that list of fear, shame, guilt,
doubt, and more would boil down to what I'd call the Mind.
Others might say the Ego.
The dissolving of Ego, Mind, Lower Ego Self, to accept what Is,

That all is Love, Bliss, Holy and part of the Beloved Creator Who Is only Divine
Ecstasy; Infinite and Infinitesimal.

What would keep you personally from accepting True Freedom or the Ecstasy
that is all around you and in you, Gem?

You'll have your answer for each human being. No?

:hug2: Great thread.

I don't have an answer but I think your post implies that you do.

I have never understood why the mind is considered burdensome and freedom really is freedom of the mind... isn't it?

[Miss Hepburn]

I don't have an answer but I think your post implies that you do.

I have never understood why the mind is considered burdensome and freedom really is freedom of the mind... isn't it?
Well, good question...about the Mind...
This would be my take...the Mind is full of hard to control stuff... sudden anger, resentments, jealousy, fear, worry, low self esteem ---you get the picture.

Then you have the incredible limitation of the Mind --- as all our limited senses bring in input. Why, a dog hears more than us, an eagle sees better than us!

With the input, say, from just the incredibly shockingly small spectrum of visible light.. that we are equiped to perceive.. ( google Electromagnetic spectrum --to see where visible light sits compared to Cosmic rays, Xrays, ultra-violet, infrared, Radio waves, etc..), well, you will see what I mean.

It is shocking how limited this teeny body is in this Universe.

SO...to go beyond the Mind --WEll, bingo ---a whole vast world of perception opens; The Doors of Perception can be opened.

Have you ever meditated? And if so - on what, how long have you ever "sat"...if you feel comfortable telling me, that is.

:smile: Miss Hepburn

[Gem]

Well, good question...about the Mind...
This would be my take...the Mind is full of hard to control stuff... sudden anger, resentments, jealousy, fear, worry, low self esteem ---you get the picture.

Then you have the incredible limitation of the Mind --- as all our limited senses bring in input. Why, a dog hears more than us, an eagle sees better than us!

With the input, say, from just the incredibly shockingly small spectrum of visible light.. that we are equiped to perceive.. ( google Electromagnetic spectrum --to see where visible light sits compared to Cosmic rays, Xrays, ultra-violet, infrared, Radio waves, etc..), well, you will see what I mean.

It is shocking how limited this teeny body is in this Universe.

SO...to go beyond the Mind --WEll, bingo ---a whole vast world of perception opens; The Doors of Perception can be opened.

Have you ever meditated? And if so - on what, how long have you ever "sat"...if you feel comfortable telling me, that is.

:smile: Miss Hepburn

Sure I meditated. I sat very long, much longer than the average sitting and only observed the breath...

I never saw the mind as limited, it just went on.

[Miss Hepburn]

Sure I meditated. I sat very long, much longer than the average sitting and only observed the breath...

I never saw the mind as limited, it just went on.
I'll bet you mean thoughts.
I know that one - been there, done that.

There is a "place" when your mind stops and all of a sudden , shazam -
you've reached a "different realm" or something and things are ..well...more interesting and it grabs you're attention.
Like all of a sudden there is a stillness that is ... different.
I have a way with words, don't I?
:smile:

[Gem]

I'll bet you mean thoughts.
I know that one - been there, done that.

There is a "place" when your mind stops and all of a sudden , shazam -
you've reached a "different realm" or something and things are ..well...more interesting and it grabs you're attention.
Like all of a sudden there is a stillness that is ... different.
I have a way with words, don't I?
:smile:

I don't see how that limits the mind.

[Miss Hepburn]

I don't see how that ? limits the mind.

"That" meaning exactly what ? Bec of this writing back and forth it's hard to know what exactly you are referring to. I can only think you mean
it's hard to see how"Thoughts"? limit the mind?

I can't say much til I know - -but to say - there is an awareness that happens that is very pristine when the thoughts stop ---and a person maybe
being a beginner at meditating, I dunno, possibly not controlling thoughts all day it could take 2 hours of focus --- but not on your thoughts, see.
Gently, quieting thoughts - not watching them as Buddhists, I hear, do - but going past them - to a profound stillness.

Anyway, that's all I can offer bec I have to run.

Freedom from the emotions that thoughts can take you to - we are still talking about Freedom..I have to remember that.
Intellectualizing (thoughts) can only take one "so far".
Carl Jung, Einstein and Bertrand Russel, among others, have all said this ---
"Wherever man is to go individually or as a whole
they will not get there with their mind."

Later...always pleasure talking with you, Gem.

[Gem]

'That' refers to what you said... and I'm wondering... is freedom the freedom of mind or the freedom from mind.

Only the bound can be freed. The free can't be freed. Are we concerned with being free because we are bound? Bound to what? Is everyone bound by the same thing, or does each individual have tailor made shackles?

It's the clinging and like hanging by your grip it slowly weakens until it just can't hold anymore, then you fall.

[psychoslice]

The shackle maybe dualism ?, while we are under the illusion that we are all separate we are never free ?.

[Miss Hepburn]

The shackle maybe dualism ?, while we are under the illusion that we are all separate we are never free ?.
Precisely, psycho.
Gem,
And may I here insert one of my favorite wisdoms from Kenneth Hagin:

Thoughts are like birds flying overhead - you can not control them --
But you certainly can stop one from making a nest in your hair.

I have been practicing for a year or so - being the observer of my feelings -(which come from basic thoughts and beliefs; As a man thinketh, so he is..., not taking love, excitement, disappointment seriously at all - I just watch and say - 'Hmm, interesting and let's see how this changes in a few seconds...' without acting upon anything.

I've lost 27 pounds just watching hunger pangs even...observing...
not "owning" alot of the thoughts or feelings.

Try being a hormonal woman that wants to slap most people upside the head - you learn fast to simply "watch" these nutty feelings and not trust them.

Now, I have a foundation of faith or a belief system I replace nutty
feelings I don't trust with -
do you have something like that?

Take care,
:smile: Miss Hepburn

[Miss Hepburn]

'That' refers to what you said... and I'm wondering... is freedom the freedom of mind or the freedom from mind.

Only the bound can be freed. The free can't be freed. Are we concerned with being free because we are bound? Bound to what? Is everyone bound by the same thing, or does each individual have tailor made shackles?

It's the clinging and like hanging by your grip it slowly weakens until it just can't hold anymore, then you fall.
I'd say tailor made shackles - some are bound by guilt, shame....I'm not.
Others are bound by sex addiction...I'm not.

That's why I spoke of being the observer before.
We've got to be the victor or the conqueror or the overcomer of these temptations or thoughts that bring depression, low self esteem, shame, hatred, anger, envy ---imo.

I would say bound, shackled and also led around or controlled by the Mind.

Bound to what? Bound to believing and being attached to what the Mind and it's thoughts "say", imo...
identifying with the silly thoughts that pass thru.

I practice mind control - ever since a friend/therapist told me to after a break up and I was sick to my stomach for a long time!
"What ? I can control my thoughts and thus my feelings -Shazam!" Who knew!
Then, I found Abraham-Hicks! And E. Tolle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpkrLqahToI&feature=related (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatc h%3Fv%3DLpkrLqahToI%26amp%3Bfeature%3Drelated)

Abraham-Hicks link on emotions. :smile:

[Gem]

I'd say tailor made shackles - some are bound by guilt, shame....I'm not.
Others are bound by sex addiction...I'm not.

That's why I spoke of being the observer before.
We've got to be the victor or the conqueror or the overcomer of these temptations or thoughts that bring depression, low self esteem, shame, hatred, anger, envy ---imo.

I would say bound, shackled and also led around or controlled by the Mind.

Bound to what? Bound to believing and being attached to what the Mind and it's thoughts "say", imo...
identifying with the silly thoughts that pass thru.

I practice mind control - ever since a friend/therapist told me to after a break up and I was sick to my stomach for a long time!
"What ? I can control my thoughts and thus my feelings -Shazam!" Who knew!
Then, I found Abraham-Hicks! And E. Tolle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpkrLqahToI&feature=related (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .youtube.com%252Fwatch%253Fv%253DLpkrLqahToI%2526a mp%253Bfeature%253Drelated)

Abraham-Hicks link on emotions. :smile:

I take it this woman claims to chanel 'someone else' which isn't my thing at all. I find Tolle a little bit silly too. I don't know who Abraham Hicks is.

I think people have to feel the emotions that occur... sooner or later... and the control of emotions is only their acceptance or resistance, and the emotional blocks people experience are directly repressed by that resistance.

Why would the observer not observe the emotions as they occur?

Maybe it's best just to accept how we really feel, and not bother about trying to control that.

[Gem]

The shackle maybe dualism ?, while we are under the illusion that we are all separate we are never free ?.

There is no seperation in dualizm...

[psychoslice]

There is no seperation in dualizm...
Yes you and I know that but those who don't, are never really free.

[Gem]

Yes you and I know that but those who don't, are never really free.

Free of what though?

People say guilt... I experience regret.

Shame... pretty much the same thing really.

Hatred... I like some stuff and other stuff not so much.

Envy... nope.

Still... I experience all nature of darker emotions, and sometimes I have a rare glimmer of happiness or something too. Would I now assume I'm bound and retain these feelings bind me until not one skerrick of them remains... That seems a little ridiculous... I don't know anyone at all who doesn't experience these.

[psychoslice]

Free of what though?

People say guilt... I experience regret.

Shame... pretty much the same thing really.

Hatred... I like some stuff and other stuff not so much.

Envy... nope.

Still... I experience all nature of darker emotions, and sometimes I have a rare glimmer of happiness or something too. Would I now assume I'm bound and retain these feelings bind me until not one skerrick of them remains... That seems a little ridiculous... I don't know anyone at all who doesn't experience these.
Yes you do have your own way of dealing with these things, so you wont feel so bad, but really your only trying to see them in a different way, just to feel better. Until we Realize that there is no one to make feel better, that there is just what IS, no labels attached, no good or bad things happening, just Being being Being, then there is no one to make things more better because there is nothing to make better.

[Gem]

Yes you do have your own way of dealing with these things, so you wont feel so bad, but really your only trying to see them in a different way, just to feel better. Until we Realize that there is no one to make feel better, that there is just what IS, no labels attached, no good or bad things happening, just Being being Being, then there is no one to make things more better because there is nothing to make better.

Jesus dude ... they do feel bad ... and I know you feel them too ... and i know everyone feels them. I don't expect them to feel better... that's like saying a kick in the nuts will feel better.

My point is... I don't see why darker emotions are blamed for a lack of freedom.

[psychoslice]

Jesus dude ... they do feel bad ... and I know you feel them too ... and i know everyone feels them. I don't expect them to feel better... that's like saying a kick in the nuts will feel better.

My point is... I don't see why darker emotions are blamed for a lack of freedom.
Of course we all feel things such as, well whatever, but its just the mind bodies reaction, its nothing to do with me, or who I truly Am. If you kick the nuts, well of course there's pain, that's the bodies reaction, the same as everything else that is felt through the mind body.

[Gem]

Of course we all feel things such as, well whatever, but its just the mind bodies reaction, its nothing to do with me, or who I truly Am. If you kick the nuts, well of course there's pain, that's the bodies reaction, the same as everything else that is felt through the mind body.

Then all these have no effect at all on our freedom... but these feelings are blamed for binding us.

[psychoslice]

Then all these have no effect at all on our freedom... but these feelings are blamed for binding us.
Yes its all an illusion, I know that's easy for me to say but that's what IS.

[Gem]

Yes its all an illusion, I know that's easy for me to say but that's what IS.

I don't know about an illusion, because these feelings occur whether it's an illusion or not, but I think you are right in saying that unpleasant emotions aren't preventing freedom...

Then the mystery remains... what really does pervent freedom?

[boshy b. good]

free because it's not about people up at our face telling us stuff
with out 'some ones back us up about, even if it's haven'up [.. ]
:grommit:

[Dargor]

We aren't free. We're both slaves of father time and slaves of the government.

[boshy b. good]

When we feel we don't need wild little hype, we stop fronting to that. that's we step up for and to freed come.

[linen53]

The most important freedom I have is related to the freedom from hopelessness. In that I mean we have a supportive Universe/Creator who wants nothing but the best for us. We have the support to improve our lives and become closer to said Universe/Creator.

Think of it as 2 mothers. One supports and loves her children and nurtures them to grow and become healthy, wonderful adults and the other neglects and ignores hers and become hopelessly entangled in all that is negative.

I consider it to be the ultimate gift that I live in a supportive Universe.

[blackraven]

Is it the 3rd dimension or just 3 dimensional?

I wonder what freedom means from the perspective of what is 'not free', so there must be some nature of shackle which inhibits to define 'not free', and I think I'm really asking what is the shackle?

The 'shackle' could be universal of course such as having the freedom to make ones own decisions and choices in life. That's pretty basic, but I think shackles are unique to each individual depending on the degree of freedom (not defined yet) one has already experienced in life. For me shackles are living in fear of future unknowns. It's that mode of thinking that restricts me in relaxing and being at peace with myself in the moment.

[blackraven]

Just noticed that this is a very old thread. Interesting nonetheless.

[Gem]

The 'shackle' could be universal of course such as having the freedom to make ones own decisions and choices in life. That's pretty basic, but I think shackles are unique to each individual depending on the degree of freedom (not defined yet) one has already experienced in life. For me shackles are living in fear of future unknowns. It's that mode of thinking that restricts me in relaxing and being at peace with myself in the moment.
Indeed, as age comes upon us the social options available are reduced, and the uncertainty inherent to life can be disconcerting. I'm sure there is a simple guruic answer, but over time I have found that ideals that seem like answers are one step removed from the lived reality, for future thoughts are also part of what survives us, but this doesn't distract from the more pertinent case that this moment is the one which determines the future, just as past moments led here to 'this', so if there is freedom, it is made here.

I was thinking of freedom in two ways. The 'freedom from' and the 'freedom to': The freedom from whatever might be bondage, and the freedom to act - with increased possibility, options or choices - but now I'm also considering a third freedom: the freedom with, where things may be free to be just as they are.

[blackraven]

I was thinking of freedom in two ways. The 'freedom from' and the 'freedom to': The freedom from whatever might be bondage, and the freedom to act - with increased possibility, options or choices - but now I'm also considering a third freedom: the freedom with, where things may be free to be just as they are.

I think the 'freedom with, where things may be free to be just as they are' may also present itself as a form of lack of freedom or shackles. For example, what comes to mind is living in a contorted physical body as a result of injury or birth defect or mental deterioration: both being free to be just as they are, but are such persons experiencing freedom at all? So often on these forums I come across vast numbers of people that have medical or mental disorders that drive them into suffering. Is suffering a freedom or is it shackles from freedom of good or optimal health?

But I think I get what you're saying, maybe, about 'freedom with', is it more so living in the moment as is and having the freedom to accept things as they are or freedom to reject ones current state of being? That kind of freedom?

[Gem]

I think the 'freedom with, where things may be free to be just as they are' may also present itself as a form of lack of freedom or shackles. For example, what comes to mind is living in a contorted physical body as a result of injury or birth defect or mental deterioration: both being free to be just as they are, but are such persons experiencing freedom at all? So often on these forums I come across vast numbers of people that have medical or mental disorders that drive them into suffering. Is suffering a freedom or is it shackles from freedom of good or optimal health?

But I think I get what you're saying, maybe, about 'freedom with', is it more so living in the moment as is and having the freedom to accept things as they are or freedom to reject ones current state of being? That kind of freedom?
I often wonder if people can observe themselves just to find out what's there without any judgment or likes and dislikes or impulsion to interfere, control, fix, make better ad so on. In short, can it just be as it is? If one is able to be fine and at peace with it just as it is could we say it is then free to be the way it is, and therefore, the person free from it? This isn't a case of liking it as it is, but even without liking it, seeing it factually as 'the way things are'.

Not to reject it and not to accept it, but the utter and complete removal of any choice in the inevitable fact of 'this', so that all that is left is the conscious awareness with this experience as it is in the way it is being experienced.

What then of action? For it would seem so passive that one would lie down and soon die rather than continue living, but here I argue action would be a willingness to act rather than acting willfully. In other words, to act in accordance with or in synergy with the movement of life as it unfolds within the experience. If there is a choice, this is it: one can be willing or willful, but not both at once, for willingness implies forsaking ones sense of volition. For example, one can't observe the spontaneously occurring breath and control the breath at the same time. There is either willingness toward the breath or willfulness toward it. Willfulness is all about thinking about the breath ad making it do as you 'tell it'. Willingness is letting it be as it is while being conscious of it. It takes willfulness to not breath and hold the breath, so inaction is actually the interference of volition. If you leave it alone it continues to rise and fall - so willingness is 'immediate action' even before 'you' make any choices to accept, reject, alter, control or what have you.

This brings up the subtle difference between 'letting go' and 'letting be' which is relative to the difference between 'freedom from' and 'freedom with'.

In the case where volition is forsaken for willingness, what of 'ego'? In willingess there nothing that needs to be done because action unfolds much like the breath does, and there is naught but to be aware of it all unfolding. The brain continues just as it did but you no longer preconceive thoughts. They appear simultaneously as they are perceived, an instant manifestation of which you are conscious and willing, rather than willfully projecting. And what kinds of thoughts are these? That willingness is 'at rest' so to speak, so the troubled mind isn't concocting conflict as the thought is produced/perceived and then fighting that perception (which already exists) with a second thought about 'making it different'. There's no ego trying to be the controller and the mind is set free form that tyranny.

[blackraven]

I often wonder if people can observe themselves just to find out what's there without any judgment or likes and dislikes or impulsion to interfere, control, fix, make better ad so on. In short, can it just be as it is? If one is able to be fine and at peace with it just as it is could we say it is then free to be the way it is, and therefore, the person free from it? This isn't a case of liking it as it is, but even without liking it, seeing it factually as 'the way things are'.

Not to reject it and not to accept it, but the utter and complete removal of any choice in the inevitable fact of 'this', so that all that is left is the conscious awareness with this experience as it is in the way it is being experienced.

What then of action? For it would seem so passive that one would lie down and soon die rather than continue living, but here I argue action would be a willingness to act rather than acting willfully. In other words, to act in accordance with or in synergy with the movement of life as it unfolds within the experience. If there is a choice, this is it: one can be willing or willful, but not both at once, for willingness implies forsaking ones sense of volition. For example, one can't observe the spontaneously occurring breath and control the breath at the same time. There is either willingness toward the breath or willfulness toward it. Willfulness is all about thinking about the breath ad making it do as you 'tell it'. Willingness is letting it be as it is while being conscious of it. It takes willfulness to not breath and hold the breath, so inaction is actually the interference of volition. If you leave it alone it continues to rise and fall - so willingness is 'immediate action' even before 'you' make any choices to accept, reject, alter, control or what have you.

This brings up the subtle difference between 'letting go' and 'letting be' which is relative to the difference between 'freedom from' and 'freedom with'.

In the case where volition is forsaken for willingness, what of 'ego'? In willingess there nothing that needs to be done because action unfolds much like the breath does, and there is naught but to be aware of it all unfolding. The brain continues just as it did but you no longer preconceive thoughts. They appear simultaneously as they are perceived, an instant manifestation of which you are conscious and willing, rather than willfully projecting. And what kinds of thoughts are these? That willingness is 'at rest' so to speak, so the troubled mind isn't concocting conflict as the thought is produced/perceived and then fighting that perception (which already exists) with a second thought about 'making it different'. There's no ego trying to be the controller and the mind is set free form that tyranny.

This response is jammed pack and I would like to have the ability to comment on every sentence of it, but unlike a few people on SF, yourself including, I'm afraid my thinking isn't fluidly deep. My thoughts get lost in the translation process of writing them down.

What came to mind as I read everything you wrote is that when the mind is busy judging this isn't right or this is ok and I can live with it for now, it's ego activity. It's that ego activity that imprisons one outside of the moment of now, just as it is. I used to say 'I avoid that which I need the most'. Even when I said it I didn't know why or what I meant by it other than fear kept me stagnant from moving ahead in say social aspects and experiencing enriching relationships. That's just an example of my ego telling me to protect the frailness of the self, myself.

If when living in the moment one observes their thoughts, is not that observation the catalyst for making a move in a direction? If I sit observing my rumbling stomach, I then tell myself I'm hungry so I go get something to eat. But if I stayed still and observed the hunger get worse without leaving to get food, wouldn't the uncomfortable feeling in my stomach cause distress? I can let the distress build or I can ignore it altogether. Even the ignoring is a choice to take inaction. This thought about making it different, like you talked about I can see doesn't have to involve the ego, in the example I gave. Is it the lack of ego involvement that sets one free and if so in what way?

I think I'm going around and round with what I'm saying and not getting very far ahead. Philosophy is not my strong suit by any stretch of the imagination. No kidding. I try. I understand all of which you say, I just don't have the means to respond in like kind. I wish I did.