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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Judaism

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  #11  
Old 16-08-2016, 10:43 AM
Clear Blue Sky Clear Blue Sky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AHIYAH
I got to the first part and I've come back with some things to think about. Now the reason why I went into Moses possibly being the writer of this book is when such words like Sacrifice comes into use. Since this book is widely accepted as being written about the time of the Torah you'd have to wonder what feast these people are celebrating and what the sacrifices were for according to the Torah. Another thing is the Cohen that performs these sacrifices there's no mention of them being present. Consider this when stating this was Job's custom.
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Day 1) Chapter 1. We see Job as a wealthy and great man, with his sons and daughters often feasting together. "When a period of feasting had run its course, Job would send and have them purified. Early in the morning he would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, "Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." This was Job's regular custom.

my personal belief is that it was written around the time of the exile into Babylon. Young Jews were being taken and educated by the Babylonians into reading Babylonian literature with Babylonian ways/religion. The Jews wanted to maintain identity while benefitting from education. So they took the Babylonian stories and adapted them.

Gilgamesh talks of a flood..... they wrote the story of Noah.

They adapted the story of Job to make it YHWH-palatable (though not too embellished) and dampen down referneces to Babylonian dieties.

They adapted the Babylonian creation stories into genesis, with some contrasts thrown in for their own culture (the Babylonians were dualists who believed in evil god/good god..... Genesis said God made all things and he did not want Adam and Eve to swallow that "Good vs Evil" dualistic concept symbolized by the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

I read another book once that laid out evidence that a lot of the patriarch stories were adaptations of older Egyptian stories. May be some truth to that.

The spirit of Job reminds me of the spirit of Abraham. Sacrifice was present but it was an individual thing, not structured priesthood, (Job is sort of a patriarchal figure). and there is the direct discourse/willingness to haggle/argue with God.
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  #12  
Old 16-08-2016, 05:34 PM
AHIYAH AHIYAH is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clear Blue Sky
my personal belief is that it was written around the time of the exile into Babylon. Young Jews were being taken and educated by the Babylonians into reading Babylonian literature with Babylonian ways/religion. The Jews wanted to maintain identity while benefitting from education. So they took the Babylonian stories and adapted them.

Gilgamesh talks of a flood..... they wrote the story of Noah.

They adapted the story of Job to make it YHWH-palatable (though not too embellished) and dampen down referneces to Babylonian dieties.

They adapted the Babylonian creation stories into genesis, with some contrasts thrown in for their own culture (the Babylonians were dualists who believed in evil god/good god..... Genesis said God made all things and he did not want Adam and Eve to swallow that "Good vs Evil" dualistic concept symbolized by the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

I read another book once that laid out evidence that a lot of the patriarch stories were adaptations of older Egyptian stories. May be some truth to that.

The spirit of Job reminds me of the spirit of Abraham. Sacrifice was present but it was an individual thing, not structured priesthood, (Job is sort of a patriarchal figure). and there is the direct discourse/willingness to haggle/argue with God.
Interesting beliefs you have there. I'll make this my last post because there's just going to be disagreements. I'm sure you're on a mission so I'll leave you to it. All good.
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  #13  
Old 17-08-2016, 10:17 AM
Clear Blue Sky Clear Blue Sky is offline
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That's okay, just sharing a thought. I saw your last post in the Christian forum, so, here, thank you for your self-control.

One thought I had as on Solomon -- in the proverbs wisdom literature, it sets out to address teaching right living. I am not recalling though if in Proverbs there is ever any encouragement or exortation to do right by the priests, observe the rituals, administer the sacrifices and tithes, etc. Because it is in the sacred texts as a book nestled among such books as Psalms (which is very rich with religious priestly references) we forgive it not mentioning religion, but as it was likely written as a stand-alone, why is it not mentioned? Likewise in chronicles and kings there is no mention of Solomon founding torah schools, David constructing synagogues, or the like (apart from the temple which is no small matter). I understand in the rabbinical literature (Talmud?) there is mention of such.
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  #14  
Old 26-08-2016, 05:23 PM
lemex lemex is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clear Blue Sky
my personal belief is that it was written around the time of the exile into Babylon. So they took the Babylonian stories and adapted them.



If you believe academics who've written about the story have said the meaning was about the suffering of the people of Israel, so you're correct according to some research done. This has alway been said. The traditional story was not about a man named Job, The character (Job) represented the nation of Israel and the suffering (exile), the man represented the people in exile and so on. Of course this would have needed to be explained, so the question is, was it. Story's were used to pass ideas and message along specific to events but I'm not sure if the story was intended to be cryptic and had been explained to understand it, but the story has been presented as original in what it meant. Nations was more important then people to at that time, where individualism is different today. Concepts were so different, but this is my interpretation from study of those times.

The morale of the story asked why Israel (Job) and it's people must suffer since they were faithful to God. But, the story also gave hope and it was said remain faithful in their struggle. The prevailing view of reward in that historic time are part of the story. Rewards were more down to earth and practical. Reward at that time in what I have read reward was not about heavenly reward, but an earthly one. Also as the story implies a greater one.

There are some books out there to research. Has anyone heard this as to it's meaning. This is also my opportunity to ask if this is correct or something else about the original.
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  #15  
Old 26-08-2016, 08:29 PM
Clear Blue Sky Clear Blue Sky is offline
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Thanks Lemex. There is attested ugraritic text and stories similar to Job, so I see this as a Jewish adaptation of the story of Job. It would be during the time of their trying to retain their national identity and personal religious integrity in the face of Babylonian attempts at integration. as such the scribes would rework the original stories and make it their own. but curiously the book of Job does not have a lot of bling-type jewish identity stuff. He is not stubborn about any rituals, the sacrifice is general and non priestly. the foreign friends never ever suggest that he turn away to other gods, or challenge *his* god, they all seem to acknowledge they are talking about the same god. I would think these elements would have been mentioned if the story was meant to be strictly nationalistic. So my best personal hunch is that it 1) had to pass the scrutiny of the ruling Babylonians 2) was some sort of compensation for standard literature in Babylonian education 3) was reworked so as to fit with and not offend the jewish religion. Something like a home school alternate reading curricula.
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