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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Death & The Afterlife

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  #91  
Old 20-02-2011, 10:13 PM
theophilus theophilus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baldr44
Moreover, there are passages of the New Testament that can be understood only if seen against the background of pre-existence of souls as a generally held belief. For instance, Matthew (16:13-14) records that when Jesus asked his disciples "Whom do men say that I am?" they replied that some people said he was John the Baptist (who had been executed only a few years before the question was asked). Others thought he was Elijah, or Jeremiah, or another of the prophets.
All of these passages can be explained by showing a belief in resurrection rather than reincarnation. In fact, the ones who thought Jesus was John the Baptist must have had resurrection in mind because there hadn't yet been time for Jesus to grow to adulthood if he had been the reincarnation of John.

Quote:
Later in Matthew (17:13), far from rejecting the concept of rebirth Jesus tells his disciples that John the Baptist was Elijah.
He couldn't have meant that John was the reincarnation of Elijah because Elijah never died. If you read 2 Kings 2:1-14 you will find that he was taken directly to heaven without undergoing death. Also, when he and Moses appeared to Jesus at the transfiguration the disciples identified him as Elijah, not as John.

You can find out what Jesus meant if you read what the angel said when foretelling the birth of John:
And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God, and he will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared.
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John (9:2-4) reports that the disciples asked Jesus whether a blindman had sinned or his parents that he had been born blind. Jesus replied that it was in order that the works of God may be made manifest in the blind man, that is, that the law of cause and effect might be fulfilled. Or, as St. Paul phrased the thought: we reap what we sow. The blind man could not have sown the seeds of his blindness in his present body, but must have done so in a previous lifetime.
It is possible that the one who asked Jesus the question might have had reincarnation in mind but Jesus told him that what he believed wasn't true.

Here is an article about some of the problems with reincarnation:

http://eternal-productions.org/PDFS/...%20Exposed.pdf
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  #92  
Old 21-02-2011, 04:50 PM
Miss Hepburn Miss Hepburn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baldr44
There are many Bible verses which are suggestive of reincarnation. One episode in particular from the healing miracles of Christ seems to point to reincarnation:

"And as he was passing by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, 'Rabbi, who has sinned, this man or his parents, that he should be born blind?" Jesus answered, 'Neither has this man sinned, nor his parents, but the works of God were to be made manifest in him.'" (John 9:1)

The disciples ask the Lord if the man himself could have committed the sin that led to his blindness. Given the fact that the man has been blind from birth, we are confronted with a provocative question. When could he have made such transgressions as to make him blind at birth? The only conceivable answer is in some prenatal state. The question as posed by the disciples explicitly presupposes prenatal existence. It will also be noted that Christ says nothing to dispel or correct the presupposition. Here is incontrovertible support for a doctrine of human preexistence.
I wrote a paper on this exact thing from my own high school brain in
1969- among other references -
I was in an advanced class that allowed us to study the
Bible as literature even in a HS!!!
__________________
.
"Prepare yourself for the coming astral journey of death
by riding daily in a balloon of divine perception.
Through delusion you are perceiving yourself as a bundle of flesh and bones...
Meditate unceasingly, that you quickly behold yourself as the Infinite Essence"

~Lahiri Mahasaya, the Guru of Yogananda's Guru

I have no scientific evidence for anything I say.







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  #93  
Old 21-02-2011, 05:19 PM
Dilchannan
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn
I wrote a paper on this exact thing from my own high school brain in
1969- among other references -
I was in an advanced class that allowed us to study the
Bible as literature even in a HS!!!


Those where the days ..When people were allowed to say the word "Bible, or Torah"
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  #94  
Old 21-02-2011, 05:28 PM
Baldr44
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by theophilus
All of these passages can be explained by showing a belief in resurrection rather than reincarnation. In fact, the ones who thought Jesus was John the Baptist must have had resurrection in mind because there hadn't yet been time for Jesus to grow to adulthood if he had been the reincarnation of John.

He couldn't have meant that John was the reincarnation of Elijah because Elijah never died. If you read 2 Kings 2:1-14 you will find that he was taken directly to heaven without undergoing death. Also, when he and Moses appeared to Jesus at the transfiguration the disciples identified him as Elijah, not as John.

You can find out what Jesus meant if you read what the angel said when foretelling the birth of John:
And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God, and he will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared.
It is possible that the one who asked Jesus the question might have had reincarnation in mind but Jesus told him that what he believed wasn't true.

Here is an article about some of the problems with reincarnation:

http://eternal-productions.org/PDFS/...%20Exposed.pdf

During the period from A.D. 250 to 553 controversy raged, at least intermittently, around the name of Origen, and from this controversy emerged the major objections that orthodox Christianity raises against reincarnation. Origen of Alexandria, one of Christianity's greatest systematic theologians, was a believer in reincarnation.

The critics of Origen attacked him on individual points, and thus did not create a systematic theology to oppose him. Nonetheless, one can glean from their writings five major points that Christianity has raised against reincarnation:


(1) It seems to minimize Christian salvation.
(2) It is in conflict with the resurrection of the body.
(3) It creates an unnatural separation between body and soul.
(4) It is built on a much too speculative use of Christian scriptures.
(5) There is no recollection of previous lives.

Again the controversy flared up, and in the wake of this the Emperor Justinian composed a tract against Origen in 543, proposing nine anathemas against "On First Principles", Origen's chief theological work. Origen was finally officially condemned in the Second Council of Constantinople in 553, when fifteen anathemas were charged against him.

There you have it in a nutshell. So we can argue this until you reincarnate and it will not be settled.

The church throughout much of its history, has demonstrated a disregard for human freedom, dignity and self-determination. It has attempted to control, contain and confine spirituality, the relationship between an individual and god.
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  #95  
Old 21-02-2011, 05:40 PM
Miss Hepburn Miss Hepburn is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Southwest, USA
Posts: 12,228
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This certainly is a subtle thing - Hell a place - Hell in the minds of the people that actually manifested a place out of thin universal dream type materials.

Tomatoes, tomahtoes to me.
Whether made up in the mind or manifested from the mind.

I mean - I look at my hand - what the heck is that - real? Not real? - Dream stuff - 99.99999% empty space?

Or all of the above - nothing....everything...

Isn't it fun...
__________________
.
"Prepare yourself for the coming astral journey of death
by riding daily in a balloon of divine perception.
Through delusion you are perceiving yourself as a bundle of flesh and bones...
Meditate unceasingly, that you quickly behold yourself as the Infinite Essence"

~Lahiri Mahasaya, the Guru of Yogananda's Guru

I have no scientific evidence for anything I say.







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  #96  
Old 21-02-2011, 06:07 PM
Shabda Shabda is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,853
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn
This certainly is a subtle thing - Hell a place - Hell in the minds of the people that actually manifested a place out of thin universal dream type materials.

Tomatoes, tomahtoes to me.
Whether made up in the mind or manifested from the mind.

I mean - I look at my hand - what the heck is that - real? Not real? - Dream stuff - 99.99999% empty space?

Or all of the above - nothing....everything...

Isn't it fun...


Hell is the place...i got kicked out of for peeing on the fire~!
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"A rose's rarest essence lives in the thorn."
Rumi


"As the rose blooms amidst thorns, so great souls shine out through all opposition."
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Love is the essence of all religion, mysticism, and philosophy, and for the one who has learnt this, love fulfills the purpose of religion, ethics, and philosophy, and the lover is raised above all diversities of faiths and beliefs." Hazrat Inayat Khan

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