Israel & Rome

[Honza]

What happened between Israel & Rome those 2000 years ago?

What could have happened and what actually did happen?

In the first place Jesus Christ turned up.

But what could have happened if he had not?

What happens when you mix Judaic Ideaology with Roman Ideaology? Or when you mix Jehovah with Ceasar?

What would have happened if the Romans had accepted the notion of One God for themselves? What would have happened if the Romans had accepted Jehovah as the One True God?

The world would probably be a totally different place by now!

Is that why Christ showed up? In order to STOP that unification of powers?

Rome became Christian, but what could have happened if it had become Judaic?

[RabbiO]

Originally Posted by Honza

What happened between Israel & Rome those 2000 years ago? We know a whole lot about the relations between Jews and Rome. What are you asking?

What could have happened and what actually did happen? We know what happened. As to what could have happened, that is a question withut an answer.

In the first place Jesus Christ turned up. That is a statement that no Jew can agree with in this regard. Christ is not a last name. It is the English form of a Greek word which is, in turn, a translation of a Hebrew word which simply means annointed, but in the larger scheme of things - the messiah. Since Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah.....

But what could have happened if he had not? You cannot create a future that did not occur, because the ripple of time changes.

What happens when you mix Judaic Ideaology with Roman Ideaology? Or when you mix Jehovah with Ceasar? As to the first, please clarify what you are asking. As to the second, I presume you are asking a question related to G-d, again your question is unclear.. There is, of course, no deity in Judaism whose name is Jehovah.

What would have happened if the Romans had accepted the notion of One God for themselves? What would have happened if the Romans had accepted Jehovah as the One True God? As per the above, there is no deity in Judaism named Jehovah. As per the above, there is no way to predict what would have happened.

The world would probably be a totally different place by now! Possibly.

Is that why Christ showed up? In order to STOP that unification of powers? Questions without meaning for Jews. Jesus showed up because Jesus was born. I'm not going to argue the point, suffice it to say from a Jewish point of view, Jesus was not the messiah. Jesus showed up because Jesus was born. Again, from a Jewish point of view, Jesus was not the messiah, he was not a prophet, he was not an ascended master, he was not the son of G-d, he was not an avatar. Jesus was a Jew, a charismatic teacher whose primary teachings are atune with various teachings current within 1st century Judaism. The real divide arises in any messianic claims he may have made for himself.

Rome became Christian, but what could have happened if it had become Judaic? See previous answers above regarding predicting futures that never were.

B'shalom,

Peter

[RabbiO]

Originally Posted by Honza

What happened between Israel & Rome those 2000 years ago? We know a whole lot about the relations between Jews and Rome. What are you asking?

What could have happened and what actually did happen? We know what happened. As to what could have happened, that is a question withut an answer.

In the first place Jesus Christ turned up. That is a statement that no Jew can agree with in this regard. Christ is not a last name. It is the English form of a Greek word which is, in turn, a translation of a Hebrew word which simply means annointed, but in the larger scheme of things - the messiah. Since Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah.....

But what could have happened if he had not? You cannot create a future that did not occur, because the ripple of time changes.

What happens when you mix Judaic Ideaology with Roman Ideaology? Or when you mix Jehovah with Ceasar? As to the first, please clarify what you are asking. As to the second, I presume you are asking a question related to G-d, again your question is unclear.. There is, of course, no deity in Judaism whose name is Jehovah.

What would have happened if the Romans had accepted the notion of One God for themselves? What would have happened if the Romans had accepted Jehovah as the One True God? As per the above, there is no deity in Judaism named Jehovah. As per the above, there is no way to predict what would have happened.

The world would probably be a totally different place by now! Possibly.

Is that why Christ showed up? In order to STOP that unification of powers? Questions without meaning for Jews. I'm not going to argue the point, suffice it to say from a Jewish point of view, Jesus was not the messiah. Jesus showed up because Jesus was born. Again, from a Jewish point of view, Jesus was not the messiah, he was not a prophet, he was not an ascended master, he was not the son of G-d, he was not an avatar. Jesus was a Jew, a charismatic teacher whose primary teachings are atune with various teachings current within 1st century Judaism. The real divide arises in any messianic claims he may have made for himself.

Rome became Christian, but what could have happened if it had become Judaic? See previous answers above regarding predicting futures that never were.

B'shalom,

Peter

[Honza]

Rabbio, thankyou for the answer. It certainly seems to be coming from a very conservative Jewish viewpoint.

There may not be a God called Jehovah, but does it really matter THAT much. You know who I am refering to...surely. Just because I get the name of God wrong does not mean I am not talking about Him.

Your reply is a little too fussy over minor details IMO.

My point was that between the Jews and the Romans there was a relationship which was stopped cold by the arrival of Jesus.

When cultures mix, such as the Roman and Jewish cultures were doing at that time, there is a sharing of ideas and beliefs.

My thought was that the Jewish religion may have affected the Romans in a big way if it were not for the arrival of Jesus.

The Romans had a powerful culture and belief system. If the Jewish culture and belief system had influenced that then the result would be very interesting. Very powerful too.

But Jesus stopped that. Why? Rome accepted Jesus as the Messiah in the end. And the Roman relationship with Judaism ended.

Rome was the most powerful civilisation on earth at the time. If Rome had accepted Judaism then Judaism would be a much bigger phenomena today. Just think what Rome did for Christianity! The vatican is in Rome for heavens sake.

If Rome had established a Judaic centre in its city then imagine how different history would be. Imagine it! The possibilities.

[RabbiO]

Originally Posted by Honza

Rabbio, thankyou for the answer. It certainly seems to be coming from a very conservative Jewish viewpoint. Judaism is a very big tent, with many divergent viewpoints. It is very often difficult or impossible to say THIS is THE Jewish position/belief (although there are some among the Orthodox who will argue such). As far as Jesus is concerned, I can assure what I have said is just about as liberal a position as you are going to get from any Jew.

There may not be a God called Jehovah, but does it really matter THAT much. You know who I am refering to...surely. Just because I get the name of God wrong does not mean I am not talking about Him. Obviously I know do whom you refer. I don't think it is out of place, however, on this subforum at least, to remind others that the tetragrammaton is not translated into Jehovah. If I appeared a bit overbearing, for that I apologize.

Your reply is a little too fussy over minor details IMO. Nah.

My point was that between the Jews and the Romans there was a relationship which was stopped cold by the arrival of Jesus. When cultures mix, such as the Roman and Jewish cultures were doing at that time, there is a sharing of ideas and beliefs. For a variety of reasons, your supposition is untrue. You would be well served to study Jewish history, in general, and the development of Judaism, in particular, from the period of Alexander the Great through, say, the compilation of the Mishnah - a period of about 500 years, from the 300s B.C.E. through approximately 200 C.E.

My thought was that the Jewish religion may have affected the Romans in a big way if it were not for the arrival of Jesus. That is possible. Even without actively seeking out converts apparently, from Roman records, Judaism was attracting a large number of Roman converts. But it is impossible to say what the ultimate affect would have been.

The Romans had a powerful culture and belief system. If the Jewish culture and belief system had influenced that then the result would be very interesting. Very powerful too. Again, an interesting conjecture, but without any way of knowing.

But Jesus stopped that. Why? Rome accepted Jesus as the Messiah in the end. And the Roman relationship with Judaism ended. If you mean a relationship with Rome, Jesus stopped nothing. There was no relationship in the way you think. Further, to be accurate, it was not Jesus, but Paul's, and those who followed him, construct of Jesus that the Romans adopted. And finally, one might properly say that it was not the Romans who accepted Jesus, it was the emperor and when the emperor says "Jump!" everybody jumps.

Rome was the most powerful civilisation on earth at the time. If Rome had accepted Judaism then Judaism would be a much bigger phenomena today. Just think what Rome did for Christianity! The vatican is in Rome for heavens sake. Again, a giant question mark.

If Rome had established a Judaic centre in its city then imagine how different history would be. Imagine it! The possibilities. One can imagine many things. Which one of those would have turned out to be true. who can say?

And now I take my leave for Yom Kippur.

B'shalom,

Peter

If sir Jesus, peace be upon him and his holy mother, was not the messiah, then who is the messiah you are looking for?

[psychoslice]

It would have just been another fable, just to keep all ignorant and themselves in power.

Originally Posted by Honza

What would have happened if the Romans had accepted the notion of One God for themselves? What would have happened if the Romans had accepted Jehovah as the One True God?

Is that why Christ showed up? In order to STOP that unification of powers?

Sister Honza!

Prophet Jesus, peace be upon him, did call for the One True God (The Creator).

It was 300 year after his been raised up to God, the true christianity (i.e. Islam) was changed and mixed up with falsehood.

Surely, they have disbelieved who said: "Allâh is the Messiah, son of Mary." But the Messiah said: "O Children of Israel! Worship Allâh, my Lord and your Lord." Verily, whosoever sets up partners with Allâh, then Allâh has forbidden Paradise to him, and the Fire will be his abode. And for the wrong-doers there are no helpers (72) [Quran.Ch5]

You did not reply for my question yet, who is the messiah you are looking for?

[Mathew James]

Originally Posted by Honza

If Rome had established a Judaic centre in its city then imagine how different history would be. Imagine it! The possibilities.

that would be very interesting, for one thing Hitler would have never showed up because Judism would have most likely spread throughout all of Europe, and there might not have ever been the crusades.


mj

[Honza]

I think Judaism and Rome is a potentially explosive and powerful combination. One which could lead onto great things for Mankind. It is almost a shame that Jesus was born into it and changed its course.

The Judaic/Roman combination could be a winner. I just worry that there are forces out there trying to stop mankind ever realising its true potential and nature. i.e. the Devil.

I don't really trust Jesus.