The Problem of Human Suffering.

[NightSpirit]

Originally Posted by Gem

No the church's final word was the world is flat and stationary and lies at the centre of the universe. Galileo was imprisoned by the church for heresy, so to me spiritual beliefs are very one eyed.

We all know the church held nearly all the power back then and were the law. Galileo disputed what was elected as a scientific/astronomical fact by another (yes, I've read about it to so won't go into detail). He later published his findings against the churches wishes and they imprisoned him for heresy. The point is, he was disputing the findings as being wrong. Science is not perfect Gem. We know there have been many stuff-ups by them over time. Neither is spiritual understanding perfect. We need both to keep the balance.

I don't know what spirituality means, but it has something to do with God and religions and gurus and stuff then there's more liberal meditation ghost busting astral lucid dreaming and the list goes on... so when you say spirituality leaves the door ajar... it didn't in the case of galileo and in fact it is the science that enlightened the spiritual in that case.

[/quote]

If you don't know what spiritual means, then how can you keep judging it on a selection of your own choices to back your immovable opinions? These things you keep mentioning are mostly off-shoots of spiritualness. Science also delves into off-shoots such as quantum theories, or researching unexplainable events. You're entitled to your opinions, as is everybody else in this world, but it is your attitude and stance on spiritual and what it represents to you, that has caused wars and fighting.

Spiritual is not meant to be diced up and separated into individual containers (as does happen at times).....its the acknowledgement of an energy that cannot be contained in ways we would like to....an energy we can't always explain away...and science will admit to this.

[NightSpirit]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Chrysaetos

Science is looking for more and works on trial and error. It does not say.. ''It's all fixed. We figured out everything''. That's the line of the spiritual guru.

Nor did I ever say spiritual wasn't trial and error. If there are those out there who spruke that spiritual practices/ideas are fixed, then that's their own opinion, not mine.

It was the Catholic church that did not want any new discoveries that challenged the Bible.

I fail to see where in the Bible the things Galileo disputed are written. I could be wrong. He disputed a Father's published paper on theories which got him into trouble.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

We all know the church held nearly all the power back then and were the law. Galileo disputed what was elected as a scientific/astronomical fact by another (yes, I've read about it to so won't go into detail). He later published his findings against the churches wishes and they imprisoned him for heresy. The point is, he was disputing the findings as being wrong. Science is not perfect Gem. We know there have been many stuff-ups by them over time. Neither is spiritual understanding perfect. We need both to keep the balance.

He was done for heresy, that's a spiritual thing. Guys like that sought the truth of facts and did not believe what they were told. Imagine the contention Darwin caused, and look how the Nazis used that to validate the Arian... then the spiritual aspect of the Jews. The truth is scientific but the speculative belief is what is problematic...

My favorite 'in your face' was Nietzsche with 'God is Dead'. That blew the door clean off its hinges.

If you don't know what spiritual means, then how can you keep judging it on a selection of your own choices to back your immovable opinions? These things you keep mentioning are mostly off-shoots of spiritualness. Science also delves into off-shoots such as quantum theories, or researching unexplainable events. You're entitled to your opinions, as is everybody else in this world, but it is your attitude and stance on spiritual and what it represents to you, that has caused wars and fighting.

Well the forum has a list of spiritual things so I'm happy enough with that.

Spiritual is not meant to be diced up and separated into individual containers (as does happen at times).....its the acknowledgement of an energy that cannot be contained in ways we would like to....an energy we can't always explain away...and science will admit to this.

Why even imagine it isn't broken into bits. There's holy wars and always have been. I didn't cause these things to occur, and the people who are so radical to kill if God will it will tout around saying 'it's my personal truth'... I mean 'my personal truth' is the opitomy of opinionated... it implies 'my opinion is true'.

Be realistic. Take this ideal 'everyone is entitled to their opinion'. The allow the KKK to hold theirs with the conviction they do for to them that's 'personal truth'. Allow the terrorist to his 'personal truth' and explode the himself in market place.

No everyone is not entitled, and I mean myself, to thier opinion which is a belief which is called 'my personal truth'... because the ideal sounds wonderful, it should be true, but it doesn't work, it is not a practical philosophy.

Just look at it with a clean slate and it's like the ocean is wet... beliefs or as we like to say 'personal truth' is a major cause of suffering, but it is equally easy to see that man will not relinquish them.

[NightSpirit]

[quote=Gem]

Be realistic. Take this ideal 'everyone is entitled to their opinion'. The allow the KKK to hold theirs with the conviction they do for to them that's 'personal truth'. Allow the terrorist to his 'personal truth' and explode the himself in market place.

No everyone is not entitled, and I mean myself, to thier opinion which is a belief which is called 'my personal truth'... because the ideal sounds wonderful, it should be true, but it doesn't work, it is not a practical philosophy.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion...I don't see how you reckon its 'ideal'.
What causes suffering, is when one acts upon his truth with intent to harm....like the terrorist or Hitler. Just because its personal truth, doesn't mean its correct thinking. There's no way round that.

Just look at it with a clean slate and it's like the ocean is wet... beliefs or as we like to say 'personal truth' is a major cause of suffering, but it is equally easy to see that man will not relinquish them.

Suffering is inevitable while there's a human race unwilling to take responsibility for their own actions. We can't survive without some kind of belief system, because without it, we can never learn and evolve. How to harvest food & water. How to recognise danger..etc. These also fall into the catergory of truths/beliefs, passed on by our fore-fathers.

There will always be some form of human suffering. Without it, we cannot know happiness/bliss.

[Chrysaetos]

Of course there are countless opinions, beliefs, and perspectives in this world, but that is not a reason to say it is all equally valid or true. One may believe the earth is flat but that doesn't make it so. There's a difference between seeing perspectives and being a relativist.

[sound]

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

There will always be some form of human suffering. Without it, we cannot know happiness/bliss.

Not sure about this ... I will reflect on it for the rest of my life and then get back to you NS lol

[Gem]

[quote=NightSpirit]

Originally Posted by Gem

Everyone is entitled to their opinion...I don't see how you reckon its 'ideal'.
What causes suffering, is when one acts upon his truth with intent to harm....like the terrorist or Hitler. Just because its personal truth, doesn't mean its correct thinking. There's no way round that.



Suffering is inevitable while there's a human race unwilling to take responsibility for their own actions. We can't survive without some kind of belief system, because without it, we can never learn and evolve. How to harvest food & water. How to recognise danger..etc. These also fall into the catergory of truths/beliefs, passed on by our fore-fathers.

There will always be some form of human suffering. Without it, we cannot know happiness/bliss.

I don't really mind if the philosophy states that ones are entitled to their beliefs, but I wish to demonstrate how beliefs are a leading cause of suffering.

It is difficult for a religious person to accept their beliefs cause much grief, but men kill eachother over religious affairs... and the bloodlust for holy water is a dire thirst.

The tought preceeds the action so a KKK belief will bring hatred like the Arian belief justifies genocide in the same vein as a religious belief blows up the market place.

A man can't really be entitled to his beliefs. It just become a right to fight for and uphold. And it isn't to dictate what a man believes, it's to say sorry but your belief are contrived pile of baseless assumptions and fictional inventions.

I know if I said that directly to a person there would be outrage. I'd be banned. Torn down for disrespecting peoples liberty because such suffering is felt... but I know my beliefs are exactly that and am happy to hear anyone say it.

Maybe we're just fooling ourselves with these sentiments of 'personal truths' and 'entitlements' but we hold these notions as precious, and don't realize that they are also beliefs, so we call them the truth, and don't let them go so easy.

To grow is to let go of beliefs, and test yourselves, see if it is easy of difficult, then enquire why is there a problem, why is it so important, why do I cling to it?

Errrr... just thinking.

The burden is on those who are involved in spirituality.

Are they living their truth?

So far science is winning here- as it has no restrictions of "Love thy neighbor as thyself." How can spirituality argue with science?

Originally Posted by NightSpirit

Are you a nurse by chance?

(smile)... no, just someone who cares deeply....

@Xan... Yes... that's what I said. Burying in the form of avoiding, denying, and repressing only perpetuates pain long term, into suffering. However, allowing it all with letting go can and does eliminate pain.

yes... i can attest to this... it doesnt sound logical, but it works, it worked for me... in order to overcome ones self, one has to face ones self... become ones self, immerse into ones self... to loose ones self... to become ones self...

it may sound like spiritual twaddle to some... but its good solid psychiatric practice... just done in a different way... to each their own yes? @gem.... and this way doesnt cost 200$ an hour 3 times a week for the rest of your life...