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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Spirituality

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  #21  
Old 01-09-2019, 09:45 AM
Siemens Siemens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EdmundJohnstone
Hmm, even if I'd like to believe B or C there isn't any proof for them. As for A, many people (Like Richard Dawkins) would say that there is sort of a proof that people are their brains, including memories, thoughts, emotions, personality, feelings, intellect etc. How? Look at Dementia people, look at the Guy who got knocked out in a bar fight.
Dawkins is, like all atheists, an ignorant. Atheists use this: “I don’t believe in Atheism, I just refuse to not believe in souls or god. Therefore Atheism isn’t a believe but a form of knowing.”-argument. But this argument is faulty.

If you ask yourself the question: Is it more likely that what we perceive as matter is
A) a “substance-ish” ultimate reality or
B) a virtual visualization generated inside our souls just like a dream?
What would you answer?

I think, you would say A is more likely. But from an objective and mathematical view this isn’t the case! B is at least as likely as A. If you disagree try to find at least one argument that makes A more likely than B.

The empirical data you presented, the correlation between brain damage and loss of consciousness or memories, can appear in both theories. Of course, if the brain were just a virtual construct, it wouldn’t do anything. But it could be part of the game that you loose consciousness if someone hits you on your head. So this brain damages fit perfectly in both theories: A and B! (I myself understand the brain as a kind of a projection (a mock-up) that reconstructs what’s going on in our soul.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by EdmundJohnstone
For someone like Dawkins , there is no need for a soul as the brain does everything.
You can reverse this argument 100%. -> There is no need to believe that matter in form of a substance exists. All we perceive as matter, the whole universe, can be explained in terms of an virtual visualization generated inside our soul. The only things that really exist are our souls. Isn’t this theory at least as frugal as Atheism?



Quote:
Originally Posted by EdmundJohnstone
It is easier to say and explain A rather than B or C. (As the soul would be sort of a fairy tale).
Why is it easier? -> Reversion: The theory that matter exists (as real existing substance) is a fairy tale.
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  #22  
Old 01-09-2019, 10:09 AM
Siemens Siemens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthat
Matter (from an esoteric perspective) is considered as the building substance of each plane.

So the physical plane is composed of physical matter.

The astral plane is composed of astral matter.

The mental plane is composed of mental matter.

Okay, this would be a somehow diluted version of the dualistic theory. So you believe in something I described as:
(C) A supernatural soul connects with the material world whereby soul and matter were two different forms of substance (dualism).

Do you have any reason to believe in this theory or do you just blindly believe? I mean do you have any arguments that speak against the idea that matter is just a virtual simulation inside our soul? And that nothing exists except our souls?
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  #23  
Old 01-09-2019, 10:31 AM
Siemens Siemens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inavalan
It depends what we mean by "really exist" and "substance".
The only senseful definition of substance I can imagine is:
Things can be virtual or substantial.
Substantial things can exists independently from other things.
Virtual things (a dream) can only exist on or in a certain medium.
A substance is the opposite of a virtual phenomenon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by inavalan
Do my dreams exist? I'd tend to say they exist.
The question isn’t if they exist. The question is if they exist in form of a substance. The answer, of course, is no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by inavalan
When I dream they seem even made of real substance.
Okay, but it think it’s clear that the “seem even” is the crucial point in this sentence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by inavalan
In a way everything exists, made of some kind of "substance", that might not be made from periodic table elements.
No, only things that can exist independently of a medium exist in a form of substance.
Your dreams can’t exist without you (your soul or your brain, as some would say) so they are no substance. They are just virtual phenomena generated by a substantial computer which is you.


Imagine, as another example, the 3D-world of the movie Avatar or Shrek. These worlds are virtual. They do only exist on a medium, namely the computers or DVDs were the virtual worlds are programmed or saved. Same is true for each computer-game.
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  #24  
Old 01-09-2019, 12:22 PM
Emm Emm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Siemens
So you are 100% sure that it is D. And you KNOW that A, B, or C are definitely not the case?

How can you be so sure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siemens
(A) There is no soul and all that is is matter (classic atheism).
I experienced an OBE during a conversation I was having while being introduced to someone. I call it OBE but could just as well as call it a shift in consciousness/awareness. I was myself but not the physical self. A very strange and astonishing experience when you're not expecting it. I was left in no doubt once I returned to my "normal" physcial state that we never cease to exist, but we take on many different forms.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siemens
(B) A supernatural soul hallucinates the material world and the material world does not really exist, i.e. in form of a substance (visualization theory).
I don't think of the soul as supernatural...its the closest thing we have but hidden in plain sight and very natural. While in the physical we are limited within our self beliefs so its where our focus of attention is.

Neither do I think of physical reality as being a hallucination, just a different vibrational dimension of reality...just as other dimensions are invisible to us doesn't mean they don't exist. Around the same time as my OBE it seemed to kick start what we call a Kundalini awakening...I was open to all kinds of different realities thankfully without losing my own rational thinking processes. It left me in awe of the experience and with a better understanding of how all exists in one energetic whole. A bit like cogs in a machine each and every existance matters ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siemens
(C) A supernatural soul connects with the material world whereby soul and matter were two different forms of substance (dualism).
I believe matter emerges from the soul. Each of us create our reality and also intermingles with other souls versions of reality through a like on like attraction. Its so complex and extraordinary that to be aware of it the human mind would short circuit. I got a very very small taste of it not so long ago and was feeling very disorientated. Its all consciousness related...after all, what are we if not our conscious mind.

The thing is, we can't convince anyone of anything. If we meet life with an open mind, have the honest desire to have our questions answered we will experience what we ask for. When you have your extraordinary moments it can take years for it to make sense and even then you can still pull more understanding from it as time goes by. The answers seem to come in layers, as if they belong in different dimensions themselves and we get fleeting access to them depending on our own state of being and what we are wanting from it. Like I said before, its an attraction based universe. That's my own personal take on it anyhow through experiences...but then again, we experience what we believe so who is to say mine is the truth lol.
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  #25  
Old 01-09-2019, 06:18 PM
inavalan inavalan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Siemens
...
Your dreams can’t exist without you (your soul or your brain, as some would say) so they are no substance. They are just virtual phenomena generated by a substantial computer which is you. ...
How could you know if that isn't the case with you now? I believe that you can't know that. As I wrote, you-in-your-dream are as convinced of existing and being made of substance.

We seem to have to accept that we disagree on existence and substance.
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Everything expressed here is what I believe. Keep that in mind when you read my post, as I kept it in mind when I wrote it. I don't parrot others. Most of my spiritual beliefs come from direct channeling guidance. I have no interest in arguing whose belief is right, and whose is wrong. I'm here just to express my opinions, and read about others'.
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  #26  
Old 02-09-2019, 08:37 AM
Siemens Siemens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inavalan
How could you know if that isn't the case with you now? I believe that you can't know that. As I wrote, you-in-your-dream are as convinced of existing and being made of substance.
I already said that I think that our physical reality indeed IS a non-substantial dream.


Quote:
Originally Posted by inavalan
We seem to have to accept that we disagree on existence and substance.
If something is experienced as a substance, it isn’t necessarily a substance it can also be virtual.

There is no other possible defintion for substance as I gave above:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siemens
Substantial things can exists independently from other things.
Virtual things (a dream) can only exist on or in a certain medium (e.g. in a brain or soul).
I don't understand why this is so hard to comprehend. I'm frustrated...
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  #27  
Old 02-09-2019, 08:38 AM
Siemens Siemens is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 189
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emm
The thing is, we can't convince anyone of anything. If we meet life with an open mind, have the honest desire to have our questions answered we will experience what we ask for. When you have your extraordinary moments it can take years for it to make sense and even then you can still pull more understanding from it as time goes by. The answers seem to come in layers, as if they belong in different dimensions themselves and we get fleeting access to them depending on our own state of being and what we are wanting from it. Like I said before, its an attraction based universe. That's my own personal take on it anyhow through experiences...but then again, we experience what we believe so who is to say mine is the truth lol.
It may be the case that we are not on this planet to discover the truth. Apparently, we are just here to make diverse experiences. Having different convictions and beliefs, in turn, allows for different experiences. It doesn’t matter if they are accurate or not.
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  #28  
Old 02-09-2019, 09:32 AM
neil neil is offline
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Location: ♡AUSTRALIA♡
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Or we are here, so that we can create offspring. Is anyone aware that we were created to be capable of creating children in our own essence.

& is anyone aware that we can not accomplish that feat, without the flesh & the organic situation.

"Soooo" why are we here on this planet, instead of starting life, without the flesh & the organic.

Anyone....any ideas....mmm...smiles everyone...BIG SMILES.
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  #29  
Old 02-09-2019, 09:53 AM
Emm Emm is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Siemens
It may be the case that we are not on this planet to discover the truth. Apparently, we are just here to make diverse experiences. Having different convictions and beliefs, in turn, allows for different experiences. It doesn’t matter if they are accurate or not.
Knowledge to experience...quite likely. They say also that we take this life far too seriously...imagine what we must look like viewed from the other side
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  #30  
Old 02-09-2019, 01:56 PM
JosephineB JosephineB is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: The green & pleasant land
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neil
Or we are here, so that we can create offspring. Is anyone aware that we were created to be capable of creating children in our own essence.

& is anyone aware that we can not accomplish that feat, without the flesh & the organic situation.

"Soooo" why are we here on this planet, instead of starting life, without the flesh & the organic.

Anyone....any ideas....mmm...smiles everyone...BIG SMILES.

All those smiles with dimples too I'm sure

Neil, I wanted to ask you about your view on once the flesh body ceases. The process involved? Everything apart from the body I mean.
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