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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Death & The Afterlife

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  #71  
Old 16-06-2018, 01:34 PM
Michelle11 Michelle11 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenslade
The Sufis have a saying - "All beliefs go to God, but a belief in God is the strongest."

I believe in predetermination because I'd like to think that there is some kind of rhyme and reason for all of this, otherwise what's the point? Is Spiritual development nothing more than a series of serendipitous happenchance? Predetermination also means taking responsibility for what happens in my Life because my Free Will was exercised as Spirit, and that frees me from the victim mentality. Things don't happen TO me they happen BECAUSE of me. It wasn't pure luck that my suicide attempt didn't happen.

The curious thing about Spirituality is that it's based on mentality.
It was interesting going through the process of confronting myself and my misunderstandings about myself. When I crashed into the severe depression it was a bit like my psyche fractured into separate pieces. I felt like I was a bit of a split personality. A part of me detached from being human, likely my objective/observer self. There was a part of me that was in a fiery rage. Another part that was totally saddened by it all. And there was a very quiet ally side that was trying to chime in despite all the noise I was making about being human and being alive. I think the ally side is my soul voice.

I think one of the benefits of having a critical father who created intense self doubt was that I had to learn to rely on my instincts to make decisions. My rational left thinking brain always saw everything I did as wrong. No matter what choice I made it was going to be the wrong one. So I had to develop the right intuitive side of my brain to function in the world. My perception is this is the part of the brain that allows us to access our higher knowing is our soul’s voice. I very clearly had thoughts about certain directions I wanted to take in life but had intense foreboding feelings that going down certain paths would mean disaster. I felt I had no choice but to listen to those instinctive forebodings. As well I also had occasions to have very strong sense of knowing the directions I was going in was the right one. Things felt right and it was my cue that the direction was where I was meant to be. Aside from the intuitive feelings the point is, it seems my life had very predetermined paths I was or should take. Certain people and places and even illnesses I was born with were written into the script of my life to help me face the lesson of self loathing and the tendency to want to bail. Those events were triggers or catalysts to get me to face myself and the people I was led to connect with would offer me the best opportunity to see myself and grow.

When I fell into severe depression though I started to feel like a victim. I felt separate from my soul and felt like my soul didn’t care about me, my human self. The point being, I do think that in many ways, our lives are prescripted by our soul so that we can intermingle with the right people in the right places at the right time. It has to be a bit prescripted for us all to connect when and where it is most ideal. This in many ways, means that our human perceptions and freewill desires are not necessarily going to be fulfilled. I thought in many ways, as humans we have free will but I think the free will comes more into play when we are scripting our lives before we come. I think it is why you sometimes here people who discuss their prelife plan being asked if they are sure they want to take on such a difficult life. Once we commit to a life we are kind of bound to fulfill the contract. Our free will about what we experience in that life is no longer in our (the humans) hands. Our free will is maybe more about how we chose to perceive the preplanned major events of our lives. I do think we have a certain amount of free will to walk a different path but more often than not we will somehow get pushed back onto the path we were supposed to be on. For me I had strong knowings of the paths I needed to take. In many ways, I think I had to have the intuition to not get myself into deep water I could not get out of. Those knowings led me to safety despite it seemingly being otherwise to my human mind.

What I have concluded for myself is that my human self had a perception that there was some ideal life that I was supposed to create and live. The truth of my life is that it was never about the career I was in or how much money was in my bank account. The main purpose of my life was to confront the need to self destruct. Everything I did, everywhere I went, was all a means to an end to help lead me to confront the self loathing that was holding me back from thriving. My human self thought I was supposed to have a specific type of life based on what society and other humans say life is supposed to be but my soul had other very specific plans and my human self was kind of along for the ride trying to survive the choices I made for myself before I was even born. But those choices were mine and as you say how I have handled things is because of me. I am responsible for the life I planned out and how my life played out in the end. But I don’t think humans have as much free will as they perceive they do. Otherwise this place would be a free for all and chaos would ensue.

When it comes down to it, though I do think we all eventually get to a place of understanding our personal responsibility in all that occurs. I think the phrase you highlighted, things don’t happen to me, they happen because of me. Or it’s counter, things happen to me, they don’t happen because of me, are both phrases that can, for some of us, keep us stuck in blame. Blame of others or blame towards ourselves. I think the phrase I am trying to embrace is, despite appearances, everything that happens is serving my better good. This empowers us to see that no matter what the circumstances we will gain from the experience. But I do think there is a lot more predetermination than any of us realizes.
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  #72  
Old 16-06-2018, 06:44 PM
linen53 linen53 is offline
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Michelle, yes, it's tough being human. There are many of us who have already decided this is the last incarnation because, for me at least, I hate incarnating. So it stands to reason that we do participate in dangerous behaviors in hopes of having an 'accident'. For me, anyway, it's 100% subconscious.
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  #73  
Old 16-06-2018, 06:47 PM
linen53 linen53 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _dagmar_
Too bad suicide has such a negative connotation.

The first response when someone says to commit suicide is often: Don't, you can get over it ! Like or there is some kind of mental illness going on or there is a good reason not to. Like life can be so beautiful, suggesting the person in question should "fight" because it can be and at this moment is just a bit lost and death is less beautiful per definition.

"fight", the idea that one needs to fight, in this case thoughts that would lead to suicide. Thoughts that are considered negative, because suicide is a negative thing that should be prevented at all times because life is beautiful. Not seeing this is then considered weak. Suicide considered giving up.

Some want to die in dignity. Some cannot take the pressure society puts on them.
There are many factors that affect the suicidal person.

Suicide is the end of great suffering.

If you read back on this thread we have discussed the negative connotations suicide has been slapped with. I think that is changing.

For me, I am sticking it out to the end. I want to learn everything I came here to learn and then shake the dust off my feet and go Home.
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  #74  
Old 16-06-2018, 07:00 PM
linen53 linen53 is offline
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Starman, what a riveting experience. I dated some soldiers freshly back from Vietnam back in 'the day' and I can support what you say about how they were considered the scourge of the Earth. It was horrible. I would listen to these veterans tell of how they were spit upon and things thrown at them as they got off the planes back here in the States. I never could understand why American society turned their backs on the soldiers like that.

I am glad you were able to redefine yourself. That's what getting older does. It brings everything back together as one experiences life and 'settles in'.

And yes, for those of you who weren't born then, the Vietnam veterans were treated abominably when they returned home. You may not know, but back then the military was not voluntary. The draft was installed and young men, fresh out of high school were sent draft notices saying they had to go. No choice.

Back to suicide, if you, Starman or I would have commit suicide we would not have finished our lessons and learned to love ourselves. We would have had to come back and start the lessons all over again. Better to just keep moving forward. I don't want to come back anymore.
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  #75  
Old 16-06-2018, 07:57 PM
_dagmar_ _dagmar_ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linen53
I would have commit suicide we would not have finished our lessons and learned to love ourselves. We would have had to come back and start the lessons all over again.
That is just presenting beliefs as facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by linen53
I don't want to come back anymore.
You don't ? why ? isn't live beautiful ?
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  #76  
Old 16-06-2018, 09:06 PM
Starman Starman is offline
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My friends, I realize that no matter what suffering I may go through, there is always someone out there who is going through something worst; still that does not negate what we individually endure, or have endured, along the way. It is not about comparing suffering, it is about getting through it with enough cognition remaining to learn from it. I knew people who were alcoholics or drug addicts and by the time they decided to clean up their life they had brain damage, or some other type of physical, mental, or emotional irreparable damage. This is what I feel is being said about those who commit suicide and have to start all over again, it goes pass the line of repair. By the time they realize what they did the damage has been done. I count myself as being blessed to have gone through what I have gone through and come out on the other side intact.

Michelle11, again I can relate to what you have shared. My experience may have started out as cognitive but nurturing damaging misunderstandings, self-loathing, etc., for me built a presence within myself that matched those perceptions, and for me that presence felt “evil.” Later on I also came to realize that I was a danger to myself and society as well. Today I see some act of violence on the news and I say to myself “there but for the grace of God go I.“ When I say it was not cognitive what I mean is that it took on a life of its own apart from what I think and I looked at it as something other than myself. It was a presence that possessed me, a presence that I had invited in by nurturing cognitive misgivings about myself. A presence that felt “evil.” At that point the word “evil” was more than a label which I held in my head. It was not cognitive.

I had to eradicate this presence that dominated me, a presence that I had allowed to grow. I too am a very sensitive person; a very transparent person. An if I am not mindful I can easily take on the hue of whatever I constantly give my attention to, a very good trait for spiritual development, but otherwise the gateway to my consciousness has to be closely monitored. The mental health community places intellectual labels on mental disturbances and people are reduced to a particular label/diagnosis. We are partly to blame because we want to know what it is, what do we call it. Like calling it something will ease its’ effects. I did not care what it was called, I just wanted to be at peace with myself, and because of my sensitivity psychotropic drugs, legal or ill-legal, did more damage than good for me.

Chemical imbalances are often thought to be behind physical and mental disorders but for me deeper than that are energetic imbalances, or vibrational dissidence. I studied alternative forms of medicine not in the mainstream of American society, although I started out working in mainstream western medicine. Ayurvedic medicine, osteopathic medicine, botanical medicine, homeopathy, indigenous traditional approaches, etc. I am big on self-help and self-management, and found lots of tools to assist me in that endeavor. I took the words “physician heal thyself” literally. Later I transferred to the mental health profession and over time found that most mental health professionals had a personal relationship with mental illness, mental disturbances, or some kind of emotional imbalance, either with themselves or a close family member. This is what usually drew them into the mental health profession.

Like most drug and alcohol counselors are recovering alcoholics or drug addicts themselves, in my spare time I studied various schools of psychotherapy to alleviate my own disturbances, and found many in the counseling profession who were doing the same. I also put myself in therapy several times and every time moved closer and closer to a semblance of sanity. Being sane is a very fine line that, in my opinion, everyone crosses back and forth more than once in their life-time. I found one of the simplest therapies, Rational-Emotive Therapy (R.E.T.), which is basically talking sense to yourself, to be very effective. R.E.T. was developed by Albert Ellis back in the mid-1950’s. ABC’s, an Activating thought in our mind becomes a Behavior that has Consequences. This is a very simplistic way of looking at it. I progressed through lots of different therapies, therapies that do not embrace the Freudian model of id, ego, and superego.

I then got into esoteric psychology and spiritual therapies that interacted directly with our energy field. Back in the 1990’s I went to a seminar in Washington, D.C. with a female friend I had known for years, she was a coworker, and we flew on the same plane together from Denver to the seminar. The seminar was on Transpersonal Psychology, and specifically Past-Life Regression Therapy. My female friend volunteered at the seminar to be part of a demonstration on past-life regression techniques. She was put in a hypnotic state and bought back to her childhood where she recounted, in the voice of a young child, events she had experienced as a child. She was then bought back to her experience in her mothers’ womb, which she described in detail. She was then bought back to a time before birth, which she described, and then back to a previous life. In that previous life she was a man and she spoke in a heavy man’s voice. She was a soldier in Napoleons’ army dying on the battlefield from a gunshot wound. She slumped from her chair and crawled on the floor at the seminar, and she spoke French, which I know she did not previously know that language, screaming in agony from the wound she had received in a past life. It was very powerful for me, knowing this woman as I did, to witness this, and afterwards on our return trip back to Denver she did not remember anything that had taken place during the seminar demonstration. The hypnotist did not coach her or plant seeds in her mind in any way, and she did these things spontaneously. Seeing this reinforced my belief in reincarnation.
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  #77  
Old 16-06-2018, 09:51 PM
linen53 linen53 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _dagmar_
That is just presenting beliefs as facts.


You don't ? why ? isn't live beautiful ?

Well, I commit suicide in my last lifetime and I have memories of me from that point until right now. Yes, I had to start all over again. But that's my belief. Why would I want you take on my beliefs? You have your own belief system and that is just fine with me.

No, incarnating is not fun. It's hard, heartbreaking work.
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If you hit rock bottom, start picking up rocks.

By embracing my imperfections I am becoming perfect.
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  #78  
Old 16-06-2018, 11:42 PM
Compendium Compendium is offline
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I think I am done this time too at least for a few hundred years or so. I love life, but so many are so negative. People are intentionally horrid to others, they seek others out just to be mean it is painful to watch.
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  #79  
Old 16-06-2018, 11:58 PM
Star Aura Star Aura is offline
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ive heard that suicide souls become trapped in that exact moment when they took their life. they live in that same moment forever its difficult for them to find a way out or to God in other terms... ive heard of this from a professional medium who talks to the dead daily and has connected with suicide souls before.
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  #80  
Old 17-06-2018, 12:48 AM
_dagmar_ _dagmar_ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linen53
Well, I commit suicide in my last lifetime and I have memories of me from that point until right now. Yes, I had to start all over again. But that's my belief.
But then why didn't you write that ? I believe .... You wrote it as if it was fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by linen53
Why would I want you take on my beliefs? You have your own belief system and that is just fine with me.
Well it's totally clear to me now it is your belief. I don't fight believes obviously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by linen53
No, incarnating is not fun. It's hard, heartbreaking work.
I wouldn't know. I'd like to believe you, but I tend to only believe what exists in my personal universe.
On the other hand, I don't see the point in you lying.
So I tend to believe you.

However, I don't see suicide as a failure. But then I also don't believe in purpose.

If one is in lasting depressing pain and one does not believe it can get better, then why prolong suffering ?
Can one only learn it's lesson through suffering ?
Does cancer teaches us to hang in there despite the suffering ?
And what kind of lesson would it be, to hang in there because you might win the lottery and magically heal ?
Or does it teaches to not look away but the hope for the better without prejudice about the consequences of suicide and to respect the suicidal's wishes until the very end ?

Yes, I believe you when you say you had to start all over again.
But I do not believe it's due to the suicidal act by itself.
Actually I believe that even if you did not commit suicide you may have not learned your lesson.
I believe you had to start all over again because you may have not learned your lesson.
Assuming there is any lesson to be learned at all.

"I have conquered death and I shall conquer life" one said.
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