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  #1  
Old 13-04-2018, 05:51 PM
jonesboy jonesboy is offline
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Understanding the Lords Prayer

Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.

To understand the prayer, I think it is important to understand first the context of "heaven". As Jesus further describes below in Luke, heaven is not some far off land...

Luke 17: 20-21
20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’[d] For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

Heaven is found within (or thru you), so Our Father is always "with us". A "name" is a knowing, and such a knowing is very hallowed.



Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

This line is reminder that the kingdom of heaven is not some far away land, but here in the present moment. Or, as other traditions describe nirvana and samsara are ultimately the same. And if we are one with God's will, we realize that and the kingdom "comes"...

For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. (‭Romans‬ ‭14‬:‭17‬ KJV)



Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us,

A few words of consideration on what we need for our "daily bread" or sustenance...

Matthew 4:1-4

1Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. 2And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. 3And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

And...

John 5:53-58

53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

Here are a couple of verses which I think might help with putting the line in context...

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: (‭James‬ ‭1‬:‭13‬ KJV)

As the above says, God does not tempt anyone to wrongdoing. But, if one thinks of the translation of temptation more like "trials"...

There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. (‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭10‬:‭13‬ KJV)

It takes on a different feel and meaning.

For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen
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  #2  
Old 13-04-2018, 06:26 PM
sky123 sky123 is online now
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[quote=jonesboy]Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.

To understand the prayer, I think it is important to understand first the context of "heaven". As Jesus further describes below in Luke, heaven is not some far off land...

Luke 17: 20-21
20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’[d] For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

Heaven is found within (or thru you), so Our Father is always "with us". A "name" is a knowing, and such a knowing is very hallowed.



Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

This line is reminder that the kingdom of heaven is not some far away land, but here in the present moment. Or, as other traditions describe nirvana and samsara are ultimately the same. And if we are one with God's will, we realize that and the kingdom "comes"...

For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. (‭Romans‬ ‭14‬:‭17‬ KJV)



Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us,

A few words of consideration on what we need for our "daily bread" or sustenance...

Matthew 4:1-4

1Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. 2And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. 3And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

And...

John 5:53-58

53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

Here are a couple of verses which I think might help with putting the line in context...

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: (‭James‬ ‭1‬:‭13‬ KJV)

As the above says, God does not tempt anyone to wrongdoing. But, if one thinks of the translation of temptation more like "trials"...

There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. (‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭10‬:‭13‬ KJV)

It takes on a different feel and meaning.

For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen [/QUOTE




' and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. '

I personally don't think this has been translated properly.

God wouldn't lead us into temptation, we sometime succumb to temptation, but God does not lead us. Mybe, do not let us fall into temptation or something similar works better. Does God test us or throw us into temptation and then sit back and watch how far we fall, don't think so.

Nice Thread JB.
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  #3  
Old 13-04-2018, 08:06 PM
SaturninePluto SaturninePluto is offline
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Quote:
Sky Posted

I personally don't think this has been translated properly.

God wouldn't lead us into temptation, we sometime succumb to temptation, but God does not lead us. Mybe, do not let us fall into temptation or something similar works better. Does God test us or throw us into temptation and then sit back and watch how far we fall, don't think so.

Nice Thread JB.

Quote:
Posted by Jonesboy

and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

I do not feel this needs further interpretation. Lead us not into temptaion, but deliver us (Instead) from evil.

Fair enough I suppose?

Agreed God may test us. Or that is to say my belief is that that could be a possibility. What I have not figured yet, is why. Why is such testing needed? And constantly? (Speaking of my experiences only here). It seems to me a lack of trust. God expects I give him my trust, I verily expect it in return. Communication, faith, trust, loyalty, are not things that go one way constantly never to be a mutual exchange as at least I view them.

While I agree it possible God may test us, I've not figured out the way. Others could conjecture the why isn't so much important to their heart's content. Perhaps others are not bothered to worry too much as it were by asking such things.

I feel such things are important, a purpose is important to me. For my life, for my time, for my effort, for my willingness, and yes even for my tests, and more importantly still yes very much so a purpose is important for me for my loyalty. One can not expect me to be loyal, and refuse to tell me why.

It is this way with myself and God. I ask why every breathing waking, conscious moment of my life, and get no solid and reasonable answer, and yet I remain loyal.

I suppose the question why could in that sense be asked of me. Why do you remain loyal to God? Despite I have not many answers to my pressing questions, in all other respects God has Never failed me.

I found your post to be very beautiful jonesboy, though I must say I perhaps may not entirely adhere to your own interpretation, as I view some of it quite differently, I find it adequate enough for its intended purpose.

Thank you for sharing.
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  #4  
Old 13-04-2018, 10:51 PM
kjw47 kjw47 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesboy
Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.

To understand the prayer, I think it is important to understand first the context of "heaven". As Jesus further describes below in Luke, heaven is not some far off land...

Luke 17: 20-21
20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’[d] For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

Heaven is found within (or thru you), so Our Father is always "with us". A "name" is a knowing, and such a knowing is very hallowed.



Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

This line is reminder that the kingdom of heaven is not some far away land, but here in the present moment. Or, as other traditions describe nirvana and samsara are ultimately the same. And if we are one with God's will, we realize that and the kingdom "comes"...

For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. (‭Romans‬ ‭14‬:‭17‬ KJV)



Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us,

A few words of consideration on what we need for our "daily bread" or sustenance...

Matthew 4:1-4

1Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. 2And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. 3And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

And...

John 5:53-58

53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

Here are a couple of verses which I think might help with putting the line in context...

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: (‭James‬ ‭1‬:‭13‬ KJV)

As the above says, God does not tempt anyone to wrongdoing. But, if one thinks of the translation of temptation more like "trials"...

There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. (‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭10‬:‭13‬ KJV)

It takes on a different feel and meaning.

For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen



Did you listen to Jesus there?--- Hallowed be thy name( YHWH(Jehovah)
Last line--kingdom, power, and glory all belong to the Father. The Father did it all, through Jesus( Acts 2:22)
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  #5  
Old 14-04-2018, 09:35 PM
jojo50 jojo50 is offline
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actually Jesus was teachings us what we should pray for. in other words, he was giving us a model prayer. the Lord's prayer is to be taken literally. at Matt 6:9-13 Jesus said....(”In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name”). When Jesus said that (“the Kingdom of God is within you”) , he didn't mean that Heaven was within a human. Because Heaven is an actual place. He meant that one has to believe in their Heart that his Father's Kingdom is very real. True!... “our Father” is always with his Children. and we should hold him dear to our hearts. But Heaven, he made for him, NOT something to be with us ,(Ps.115:16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord’s; But the earth He has given to the children of men).

And when Jesus said...”Hallowed be Your name”, he was referring to HIS FATHER. You said ... “A "name" is a knowing, and such a knowing is very hallowed”. A “name is what's given to a person, place or thing ,in order to personally identify that subject. “HALLOW”, means to make Holy or Honor. Jesus was saying may his FATHER'S NAME, be made Holy and to be Honored. Though MANY refuse to even acknowledge either he HAS a Father ,or that his Father has a name. (verse 10 “Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven”).

Again Jesus was speaking literally, this is what we should pray for. Before sin came into this world, Earth was to be like Heaven. Meaning NO sin, hatred, violence, etc. soon this world will be the way Jehovah God originally planed, filled With love and peace ,(Psa. 37:9-11 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace).

Jehovah God doesn't tempt anyone by means of something evil. He didn't send satan to Jesus. Satan knew if Jesus died a righteous human, he would soon be destroyed, Which he would have anyway. Satan tried to have Jesus done away with even when he was a child, by a wicked king. Do you really believe he need Jehovah God to use him as a test for Jesus? ‭(1Corinthians‬ ‭10‬:‭13), is showing that Jehovah will not allow any temptation towards his people, in which they couldn't handle. Don't be fooled, trials and temptation is NOT the same.

It's satan who tempts, he's called that ,(Matt. 4:3), and he does it by means of trickery ,(Ephe. 6:11 Put on the whole Armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil). Jehovah doesn't tempt, but he will allow satan for a while to do what he believe he could do for ALL humans. Which is prove to Jehovah God and Jesus, that he could turn ALL against them, thought he couldn't! peace
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  #6  
Old 17-04-2018, 03:37 PM
jonesboy jonesboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjw47
Did you listen to Jesus there?--- Hallowed be thy name( YHWH(Jehovah)
Last line--kingdom, power, and glory all belong to the Father. The Father did it all, through Jesus( Acts 2:22)

Jesus is one with the Father. We are all joint heirs remember?

Also, you will never find a reference of Jesus calling the Father Yahweh.
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  #7  
Old 17-04-2018, 03:40 PM
jonesboy jonesboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jojo50
actually Jesus was teachings us what we should pray for. in other words, he was giving us a model prayer. the Lord's prayer is to be taken literally. at Matt 6:9-13 Jesus said....(”In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name”). When Jesus said that (“the Kingdom of God is within you”) , he didn't mean that Heaven was within a human. Because Heaven is an actual place. He meant that one has to believe in their Heart that his Father's Kingdom is very real. True!... “our Father” is always with his Children. and we should hold him dear to our hearts. But Heaven, he made for him, NOT something to be with us ,(Ps.115:16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord’s; But the earth He has given to the children of men).

And when Jesus said...”Hallowed be Your name”, he was referring to HIS FATHER. You said ... “A "name" is a knowing, and such a knowing is very hallowed”. A “name is what's given to a person, place or thing ,in order to personally identify that subject. “HALLOW”, means to make Holy or Honor. Jesus was saying may his FATHER'S NAME, be made Holy and to be Honored. Though MANY refuse to even acknowledge either he HAS a Father ,or that his Father has a name. (verse 10 “Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven”).

Again Jesus was speaking literally, this is what we should pray for. Before sin came into this world, Earth was to be like Heaven. Meaning NO sin, hatred, violence, etc. soon this world will be the way Jehovah God originally planed, filled With love and peace ,(Psa. 37:9-11 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace).

Jehovah God doesn't tempt anyone by means of something evil. He didn't send satan to Jesus. Satan knew if Jesus died a righteous human, he would soon be destroyed, Which he would have anyway. Satan tried to have Jesus done away with even when he was a child, by a wicked king. Do you really believe he need Jehovah God to use him as a test for Jesus? ‭(1Corinthians‬ ‭10‬:‭13), is showing that Jehovah will not allow any temptation towards his people, in which they couldn't handle. Don't be fooled, trials and temptation is NOT the same.

It's satan who tempts, he's called that ,(Matt. 4:3), and he does it by means of trickery ,(Ephe. 6:11 Put on the whole Armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil). Jehovah doesn't tempt, but he will allow satan for a while to do what he believe he could do for ALL humans. Which is prove to Jehovah God and Jesus, that he could turn ALL against them, thought he couldn't! peace

Jesus brought a new covenant, a higher teaching.

Jesus repeatedly states Heaven isn't some place.

Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you. When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."
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  #8  
Old 17-04-2018, 06:27 PM
barrynu barrynu is offline
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Heaven is within and it grows and comes out..WOW! is all i can say

My version of this powerful prayer/conversation

OH creator,you are not father or mother,but both
your kingom will grow within me and emerge into this earth
give me today what I need and forgive me for when I turn away from you
and I forgive those that turn from me
Remind me of you, when I am being tempted away from you
and deliver me back into your love
for you are all, for ever and ever AMEN.
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  #9  
Old 17-04-2018, 06:45 PM
sky123 sky123 is online now
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https://youtu.be/locW-9S00VU


Beautiful Aramaic rendition of Our Father.
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  #10  
Old 18-04-2018, 03:17 AM
django django is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesboy
Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.

To understand the prayer, I think it is important to understand first the context of "heaven". As Jesus further describes below in Luke, heaven is not some far off land...

Luke 17: 20-21
20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’[d] For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

Heaven is found within (or thru you), so Our Father is always "with us". A "name" is a knowing, and such a knowing is very hallowed.

How is heaven found 'thru you'? Heaven is within you is stated in the Lord's prayer, but what do you mean by 'Heaven is found thru you'?

Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

This line is reminder that the kingdom of heaven is not some far away land, but here in the present moment. Or, as other traditions describe nirvana and samsara are ultimately the same. And if we are one with God's will, we realize that and the kingdom "comes"...

Are nirvana and samsara ultimately the same? Not the best source but this wiki quote states that "samsara ends if a person attains nirvana":

Saṃsāra (Sanskrit, Pali; also samsara) in Buddhism is the beginning-less cycle of repeated birth, mundane existence and dying again.[1] Samsara is considered to be dukkha, unsatisfactory and painful,[2] perpetuated by desire and avidya (ignorance), and the resulting karma.[3][4][5]

Rebirths occur in six realms of existence, namely three good realms (heavenly, demi-god, human) and three evil realms (animal, ghosts, hellish).[note 1] Samsara ends if a person attains nirvana,[note 2] the "blowing out" of the desires and the gaining of true insight into impermanence and non-self reality.[7][8][9]

Whether nirvana is equivalent to heaven or not is an interesting question.


For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. (‭Romans‬ ‭14‬:‭17‬ KJV)



Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us,

A few words of consideration on what we need for our "daily bread" or sustenance...

Matthew 4:1-4

1Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. 2And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. 3And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

And...

John 5:53-58

53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Give us this day our daily bread is a request for the basics of life, actual food. You can be as spiritual as you like but if you don't eat you die. In this case 'daily bread' is not an analogy for spiritual nourishment but basic food needs being taken care of. Jesus was a down to earth kind of man afterall.

and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

Here are a couple of verses which I think might help with putting the line in context...

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: (‭James‬ ‭1‬:‭13‬ KJV)

As the above says, God does not tempt anyone to wrongdoing. But, if one thinks of the translation of temptation more like "trials"...

There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. (‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭10‬:‭13‬ KJV)

It takes on a different feel and meaning.

I have heard it said that God allows the devil his chance at winning a soul to his side, otherwise the devil could rightly say a soul didn't choose God freely, where only one possible choice is available. God wants people to choose him, not as an innocent babe, but in full consciousness. Jesus himself was tempted three times, and was not swayed from his personal faith and conviction. All saints are tested I imagine. No one would seek temptation but it is inevitable on a truly spiritual path. Perhaps this line is an affirmation that given temptation, may I have the strength to not succumb, but with the help of 'the Father' be led always towards God only. As you quote above, God does suffer us to be tempted, but also shows us the way to Himself so we might choose that way.

For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen
..........
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