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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > General Beliefs

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  #1  
Old 31-01-2018, 05:57 PM
VinceField VinceField is offline
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Atheism/naturalism is illogical

Itís a common misconception that the atheist or naturalist worldview is grounded in logic, while the Christian worldview is based in mere fantasy and belief. The reality is that the atheist/naturalist worldview in which nothing exists beyond matter and nature (i.e. God, the soul, etc.) is self-defeating, irrational, internally inconsistent and contradictory, actually requiring the atheist/naturalist to steal from the Christian worldview to even make an argument for their own belief system!

The atheist/naturalist worldview does not provide the preconditions for intelligibility, reasoning, science, natural laws, morality, human freedom and dignity- these immaterial and abstract elements of reality cannot exist if the universe is nothing more than matter in motion. Thus the very proposition of an argument for the naturalist worldview is proof that the naturalist worldview is false, as the atheist must employ logic and reasoning to argue, and again, these immaterial aspects of reality would not exist if the universe was strictly material.

The atheist worldview cannot account for intelligibility. In order for our experience to make sense, we need to think properly, which requires the laws of logic. A random chance universe of matter in motion doesnít allow for an ultimate immaterial standard of reasoning. To the atheist, there shouldnít even be the same laws of logic between any two people if thoughts are nothing more than chemical reactions in the brain, as everyone has different brains undergoing different chemical reactions. A correct and objective standard of thinking doesnít make sense in a chance and purposeless universe.

Without an omniscient source of knowledge, there are no grounds for which anything can be known. One must presuppose their senses and memory are reliable to have knowledge, and yet this assumption cannot be accounted for in the atheist worldview where everything is just matter in motion and in constant change. There would be no way to know that your brain is conveying intelligibility in a meaningful and correct way. Assuming that your senses are accurate is begging the question. The atheist has no philosophical basis for trusting their own reasoning. Even if you had 99% of all possible knowledge, the 1% you didnít have could completely change the 99% that you think you know, and so the naturalist has no sufficient foundation for knowledge and truth.

Iíve heard the argument from many atheists that mankind should be rational, but from the atheist worldview, where the universe is simply atoms bumping into each other with no underlying purpose or meaning, there is no obligation or reason to be rational. If naturalism was true and thoughts were merely chemical reactions guided by natural laws, there would be no mind and no objective reasoning or freedom of thought. If naturalism was true, there would be no rationality, there would just be whatever people end up thinking and doing resulting from these unguided natural processes. Thus the materialist who wants to be rational has already departed from his materialism and concedes his position.

Materialists believe that everything happens by chance and there is no personal control over the universe. They adopt a contradictory position, however, upon assuming the uniformity of nature, as there is no basis for assuming that what has happened in the past will happen in the future in a random chance universe. All human reasoning and science presupposes uniformity, but the atheistís worldview does not account for this and they must beg the question and rely on an unquestioned philosophical bias to hold this belief. The atheistís presupposition of the uniformity of nature is contradictory to naturalism.

The idea that empiricism is the ultimate standard of truth and that all truth claims are proved by empirical observation is another self-defeating view, as that itself is a truth claim which is by nature immaterial and thus cannot be tested or proven by science or empirical observation. Empiricism refutes itself. Science cannot account for the concept of truth. How does the empiricist know that all truth claims are proved by empirical observation? Did they prove that by empirical observation? Of course not, truth cannot be observed, it is immaterial and abstract.

Aside from the fact that you canít make sense of evidence within the atheist worldview, as it lacks the preconditions for intelligibility as Iíve already demonstrated, evidence itself can never resolve a worldview conflict anyway, as a personís worldview tells them how to interpret the evidence. Thus using evidence to prove the naturalist worldview to a Christian, for example, is the atheistís folly, not to mention the fact that the atheist contradicts their own position as they do so.
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  #2  
Old 31-01-2018, 06:04 PM
inavalan inavalan is offline
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Both atheists and theists rely on faith. You can't use logic neither to support nor to combat either.
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  #3  
Old 31-01-2018, 06:14 PM
VinceField VinceField is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inavalan
Both atheists and theists rely on faith. You can't use logic neither to support nor to combat either.

The difference is that we have logic backing our faith. As I've already demonstrated, there is no logic behind atheism.
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  #4  
Old 31-01-2018, 06:40 PM
inavalan inavalan is offline
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You believe that your logic demonstrated that. It didn't, it couldn't, and I suspect you're out there just to start an argument from an inflexible position, and not in a quest for the truth (that you claimed on the other thread to exist absolutely).

Theism and atheism are both faith based, and rely on limited and biased logic. Whatever in them causes you joy, is good for you because is in harmony with your earthly life purpose. Whatever in them causes you negative feelings (like righteousness) isn't in harmony with your life purpose, and you should avoid it, because it will bring you more negativity, pain, and will hinder the purpose you incarnated for.

PS: To me, "vehemence" is a sign of "erroneousness".
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Old 01-02-2018, 08:57 AM
Lorelyen Lorelyen is offline
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It's possible that some people try to prove something mystical with logic. Some internet "spiritual" drivel is riddled with attempts at logic but built on false premises and factoids.

I'm not under this misconception re atheism. It requires as much a stretch of belief as the usual religious views of the various gods and afterlife. It's also seems to rely on our five senses telling us everything rather than being a human limitation because there seems to be more (so some of us find). It's possible to trust what we think we know - an atheist might claim "and that's all there is" where I know it isn't.

As for the universe I regard it as one vast system where everything is functionally related. Do something - and the whole system has to adjust. (There might just be a problem with the measurement but that doesn't deny the theory.) We notice it closer to home with Earthen ecology. We control nothing, just make adjustments. Humanity is just another component in the culture dish. Whether an event can be random or not is unprovable. We have neither the modelling capacity nor time to find out.

An interesting topic to me being an enthusiast of General Systems theory.
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Old 01-02-2018, 09:53 AM
Greenslade Greenslade is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VinceField
Thus using evidence to prove the naturalist worldview to a Christian, for example, is the atheist’s folly, not to mention the fact that the atheist contradicts their own position as they do so.
The atheist's folly is the vain attempt at anything close to a reasoned discussion against a standpoint like this. This post belongs in the Dark Ages and you clearly have no idea. Personally I find it highly offensive to say the least.
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Old 08-02-2018, 08:59 PM
VinceField VinceField is offline
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If anyone has a logical refutation of any of the points I've made, I'm willing to respond. I'm not interested in arbitrary opinions.
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Old 09-02-2018, 10:30 AM
Greenslade Greenslade is offline
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A quick trip to Google would shed so much light on this subject but I guess it's too much to ask for.
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Old 09-02-2018, 04:53 PM
OmonRa OmonRa is offline
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The folly of Christianity and atheism is the rejection and failure to acknowledge any other possibility or probability as being acceptable; that 'their way' is the 'only way.' Spreading ideas that certain groups of people are 'chosen,' 'better,' or 'worth more,' in the eyes of a god is just as arrogant and absurd as claiming there are, and can never be, entities beyond our comprehension. We are all one humanity, doesn't matter who or what you worship or believe, just do it in love and it's all good.

'An atheist, a vegan, and a CrossFitter walk into a bar...I know because they all told me.'
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  #10  
Old 09-02-2018, 09:25 PM
VinceField VinceField is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenslade
A quick trip to Google would shed so much light on this subject but I guess it's too much to ask for.

I guess supporting your assertions with some kind of logical argument is too much to ask for. If you disagree with something said in the OP, then refute it.
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