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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Buddhism

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  #21  
Old 26-01-2018, 03:44 PM
Eelco Eelco is offline
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One last thing.
The Buddha does not teach there is NO Self.
Only that our experiences (or clinging to our experiences)are subject to the 3 characteristics of impermanence, non-self and dhukka.

You can agree I think that those you love are not you, are not forever and are subject to changes that will rock your boat so to speak?
Dhukka can mean any kind of stress that will rock your peace of mind.

WIth Love
Eelco
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  #22  
Old 26-01-2018, 04:20 PM
sky123 sky123 is online now
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Another last thing ,

Dukkha - unsatisfactoriness also.
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  #23  
Old 26-01-2018, 05:48 PM
BlueSky BlueSky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catsquotl
How deeply would you want to dive into what The Buddha thought, how it is often misunderstood and what he is actually saying?

First of all I'd be the last to convert anyone to accept anything.
That said he does say somethings for house holders. As a father of 6 living with my lovely wife 2 dogs and a cat. If I felt that I couldn't love them to become free from suffering I would never consider myself a buddhist.

I don't think he says you will disappear. Only that by piercing the veils of ignorance you will discover there is no you there. Do you see the subtle difference? Disappearing is not something that happens when you become enlightened. It is discovered that you were never there in the first place.

That does not mean you will die, although most theravadan believe that after attaining arahatship you should ordain or you will die within 7 days..
I somehow doubt that given the fact many people claim to be arahants and are married or in relationships.

In the text's you'll find that by seeing things as they are an opportunity arises for the so called 10 fetters to fall away.



That is what happens from some perspectives..No more and no less.
All the other teachings in a sense are there to make that realization easier, but not necessary. In my understanding and study so far I have never read that a house holder should live like a monk.
In fact I have read.That it is better to re-marry than burn with lust.(I'll have to search for the sutta though)
Giving all the fetters a healthy(less unwholesome) way to express instead of dying trying to fight them..

With Love
Eelco
Hi Eelco, bad choice of words on my part. I didn't intend for the word disappear to mean actually disappear.
With that said, no you there means no anybody there. How can one love those that are special in their lives in a special way if there is no you and no them? How can you have any relationship that has any hint of being human with no you and no them?
Further more does a love for existence imply a lust for it?
How can a no you state love existence? That's my other beef with Buddhism. It seems to promote being at odds with existence and everything that is human about it. It reminds me of the Robins I once watched for weeks building a nest and laying their eggs, keeping their newborns warm in what was extreme weather only to have a blue jay snatch them out for dinner. It wasn't the act of the babies dying that struck me, it was how the robin parents just seemed to move on, unaffected by what happened.
That reaction is how I view a Buddhist who has reached this 4th stage you posted.
No thanks....
Keep in mind, I'm not looking for answers as I have found them already. I'm just trying to understand what a Buddhist follower hopes to find in teachings that clearly lead to what I am pointing at.
Buddhism is teaching that everything you know and love about life, including life itself is like being in the matrix, not real and something to overcome.
Who would want that and why?
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  #24  
Old 26-01-2018, 06:00 PM
BlueSky BlueSky is offline
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Everything changes. Everything is connected.
Within that that there is you and there is me.
That is a mystery, not something to overcome.
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  #25  
Old 26-01-2018, 06:43 PM
sky123 sky123 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueSky
Hi Eelco, bad choice of words on my part. I didn't intend for the word disappear to mean actually disappear.
With that said, no you there means no anybody there. How can one love those that are special in their lives in a special way if there is no you and no them? How can you have any relationship that has any hint of being human with no you and no them?
Further more does a love for existence imply a lust for it?
How can a no you state love existence? That's my other beef with Buddhism. It seems to promote being at odds with existence and everything that is human about it. It reminds me of the Robins I once watched for weeks building a nest and laying their eggs, keeping their newborns warm in what was extreme weather only to have a blue jay snatch them out for dinner. It wasn't the act of the babies dying that struck me, it was how the robin parents just seemed to move on, unaffected by what happened.
That reaction is how I view a Buddhist who has reached this 4th stage you posted.
No thanks....
Keep in mind, I'm not looking for answers as I have found them already. I'm just trying to understand what a Buddhist follower hopes to find in teachings that clearly lead to what I am pointing at.
Buddhism is teaching that everything you know and love about life, including life itself is like being in the matrix, not real and something to overcome.
Who would want that and why?



'it was how the robin parents just seemed to move on, unaffected by what happened.'

What a beautiful way of living for the moment, embracing life regardless.
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  #26  
Old 26-01-2018, 07:54 PM
BlueSky BlueSky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sky123
'it was how the robin parents just seemed to move on, unaffected by what happened.'

What a beautiful way of living for the moment, embracing life regardless.
You can't be serious. They didn't just embrace life regardless, they were unaffected by what happened or so it seemed.
That was the point.
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  #27  
Old 26-01-2018, 08:26 PM
Eelco Eelco is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueSky
Who would want that and why?

I'm considering an answer. Not everything I experienced that has make me see the Buddhas wisdom is suitable for an open forum.

For now I feel that the Buddha points to something less bleak than you seem to think,but truth be told I'm not a 100% sure about that.

I would never for instance leave my wife in pursuit of my spiritual endevours. This is something I vowed to and its a vow more dear to me to hold than any spiritual vow ever could mean to me.

Looking at the buddhas life story as it is handed down and seeing most arhats that are alive today. I don't see them act like unaffectes robins. Quite the opposite in fact.

Even though the buddha makes some remarkable statement as to how to become free from suffering he doesn't explain much about what he attained other than insight in the 4 noble truths.

His rules for the monastic order he founded are there principali for monks and later nuns. The vinyana (book of monastic rules) grew to what it is out of neccsity over a period of many years. And isn't very usefull for family people.

With love
Eelco
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  #28  
Old 26-01-2018, 08:51 PM
Eelco Eelco is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueSky
With that said, no you there means no anybody there.

I don't think he said that. He said that all phenomenal experiences are subject to 3 characteristics.
Annica(impermanence)
Dukkha(stress, unsatisfactoryness,suffering)
Annata(not-self)

I belief he points to a state called nibbanna that is supra-phenomenal and is not subject to these 3 characteristics.
Some talk about entering nibanna is life as enlightenment and maha-nibanna which is only entered after death. As an Arhat you still have a body, you still move around and are in need of nourishment.

I suspect that an arhat still experiences what an ordinary man experiences, but his or her relationship to that experience is changed. How.. Well I'll let you know when I get there..

You know relationships can change by just one question. I haven't seen my parents for that reason for over 2 years now. Some stupid question and poof. Now I'm not saying a relationship will always do that, but it does go a long way in seeing some of the wisdom in what you can control when it comes to relationships. Until that question though I have had a pretty good relationship with my parents for the better part of 43 years.
And here we are. Both incapable of reconcile what happened then.

Does that mean it doesn't affect me? Nope.
Do I want it to not affect me? also no.

What Buddhism tought me however is to let go what I cannot control and not dive myself into a depression over it. But to accept that this is how things are now.
I think about it almost daily, but these thoughts come and go, my feelings about them come and go. And many times during the day I don't think about them.
All these thoughts, feelings and moments of absence of feelings and thoughts about them come and go. They arise, stay a while and pass. Just as the Buddha said they would.

With Love
Eelco
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  #29  
Old 26-01-2018, 08:57 PM
sky123 sky123 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueSky
You can't be serious. They didn't just embrace life regardless, they were unaffected by what happened or so it seemed.
That was the point.

Very serious... Moment to moment whatever happens, embrace it. The robins accepted what happened then acted, they moved on and did what birds do, nature is what it is.
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  #30  
Old 26-01-2018, 09:01 PM
sky123 sky123 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catsquotl
I don't think he said that. He said that all phenomenal experiences are subject to 3 characteristics.
Annica(impermanence)
Dukkha(stress, unsatisfactoryness,suffering)
Annata(not-self)

I belief he points to a state called nibbanna that is supra-phenomenal and is not subject to these 3 characteristics.
Some talk about entering nibanna is life as enlightenment and maha-nibanna which is only entered after death. As an Arhat you still have a body, you still move around and are in need of nourishment.

I suspect that an arhat still experiences what an ordinary man experiences, but his or her relationship to that experience is changed. How.. Well I'll let you know when I get there..

You know relationships can change by just one question. I haven't seen my parents for that reason for over 2 years now. Some stupid question and poof. Now I'm not saying a relationship will always do that, but it does go a long way in seeing some of the wisdom in what you can control when it comes to relationships. Until that question though I have had a pretty good relationship with my parents for the better part of 43 years.
And here we are. Both incapable of reconcile what happened then.

Does that mean it doesn't affect me? Nope.
Do I want it to not affect me? also no.

What Buddhism tought me however is to let go what I cannot control and not dive myself into a depression over it. But to accept that this is how things are now.
I think about it almost daily, but these thoughts come and go, my feelings about them come and go. And many times during the day I don't think about them.
All these thoughts, feelings and moments of absence of feelings and thoughts about them come and go. They arise, stay a while and pass. Just as the Buddha said they would.

With Love
Eelco


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