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  #421  
Old 08-03-2018, 09:37 PM
Eelco Eelco is offline
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I still don't think the spiritual conversation is a difficult one.
Even though people misunderstand each other on a grand scale.

That has little to do with the spiritual side of things in my humble opinion.
One of the causes of perceived difficulty lies in the expectations we have when engaging in a text-only format when we discuss these matters.
More precisely the expectation that we understand what the other is writing, we have no way of knowing the intention behind the written words. Smilies help but very little in this regard.

Another expectation is the idea that just because this is a spiritual forum we expect the people we meet here to sort of adhere to our understanding of spirituality.

In real life, when you talk to someone who is on a similar path we get to see the glimmer in their eye's, feel the love they express when talking about these subjects. Not so on forums.

Ah well, lessons start sinking in.. Only took me a decade of trying.
I'll probably mess up a few times more before I understand that connection is not something that can be shared over a wifi connection.
Ideas sure..

Connection? Maybe not in the way I hoped it would.

With Love
Eelco
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  #422  
Old 08-03-2018, 09:53 PM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catsquotl
I still don't think the spiritual conversation is a difficult one.
Even though people misunderstand each other on a grand scale.

That has little to do with the spiritual side of things in my humble opinion.
One of the causes of perceived difficulty lies in the expectations we have when engaging in a text-only format when we discuss these matters.
More precisely the expectation that we understand what the other is writing, we have no way of knowing the intention behind the written words. Smilies help but very little in this regard.

Another expectation is the idea that just because this is a spiritual forum we expect the people we meet here to sort of adhere to our understanding of spirituality.

In real life, when you talk to someone who is on a similar path we get to see the glimmer in their eye's, feel the love they express when talking about these subjects. Not so on forums.

Ah well, lessons start sinking in.. Only took me a decade of trying.
I'll probably mess up a few times more before I understand that connection is not something that can be shared over a wifi connection.
Ideas sure..

Connection? Maybe not in the way I hoped it would.

With Love
Eelco
Indeed.

There are many limitations when it comes to expressing oneself over the internet and anonymity being the main one.

Yes, there's a difference between this> and this:


The intention is noted, but it's not the same.

Also, the internet is no substitute for physical interaction, but even I have problems with that one.

For myself, the spiritual conversation is very difficult and I don't know if that's because of me, the other or both.

Then again, normal conversation is difficult for me and spiritual conversation just adds a whole new dimension to that and 'ups the ante'.
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  #423  
Old 08-03-2018, 11:10 PM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Which sort of leads me on to think about 'internet spirituality' in general.

I really don't know how many 'vibes' or 'metta' or whatever you call it can truly be imparted online.

In the attempt to convey a personal experience, the internet sort of impersonalises it into another kind of mass media fairy tale.

I mean, c'mon...can one really get shaktipat online by merely watching a Youtube lecture given by Sadhguru? (for example).

I guess it has to do with their own faith and feelings in regards, but after spending some time on this forum myself, I also had an epiphany.

There are so many spiritual people out there that wouldn't even be bothered looking at a forum like this one and just basically blog, make youtube videos themselves and don't even engage beyond the 'sharing' because it is totally irrelevant.

Many people ask things on here...ask for help and such, when a simple google search can give them hundreds of different 'answers' and they can just choose what personally fits and what applies due to any constraints they may have and often we 'ask without' instead of 'seeking within' because, as always our own Higher Self knows what is best for us before anybody else.

So, it therefore becomes a case of: http://lmgtfy.com/

As I posted last night, I've been watching Sally Kempton and Igor Kufayev and I've also made trips back to Hindu Dharma Forums and there's no 'petty bickering' over what anybody has to say in regards and I guess, it also applies to me that if nobody can 'find fault' with what I type, they just will not respond, when all I am seeking is acknowledgment that I actually typed something beyond my laptop telling me so.

I remember, a while ago now doing a little experiment...'spiritual forum' vs 'A.I. chatbot'.

So, I made the simple statement (without intent) "I am God".

Spiritual forum: "That's nice"..."we ALL are"..."great epiphany there"..."tell me something I don't know".

A.I. Chatbot: "what makes you think you are God?"

A.I. Chatbot won that round hands down! lol

There's just so much information out there, it's a veritable 'mental smorgasbord' of people and ideas about their own perceived notions of spirituality and it's up to us to use discretion and discernment in regards to 'filtering what applies' and yet, how do we really know what actually does? or do we just watch, read, listen and go 'that's nice dear...whatever you say' and move on?

I've watched a lot of these videos...everything from 'how to decalcify your pineal gland in 5 minutes' and 'get enlightened instantly by watching this clip' (which did not enlighten me) to videos by Mooji, Adyashanti, Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, Sadhguru, Pilot Baba and even Sally Kempton, Igor Kufayev and Chris Holliday.

In the end, I usually go 'meh, forget all that' and I go listen to a recitation of the Sri Rudram or the Shiva Chalisa...and feel like a weight has been lifted off.

So, we go back to the example given of Sadhguru (and there are many 'self-styled/professed/proclaimed' internet-gurus out there) and I have watched nearly all of his offerings which have done nothing to move this rock from its grounding foundations...until I saw one...and Sadhguru did not even speak whatsoever...and I go 'now you are talking':

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFqMVljpJBE

If anything, the internet and conversations thereon is a good 'sounding board' for personal knowledge and experience, in that no matter how much one thinks they know, there's always somebody out there who knows far more about a particular subject than you do, if you only take the time to look...and it can be a rather humbling experience (and forces Shivani to actually experience that emotion).

After a few hours of watching all those "Buddha at the Gaspump" interviews, I come back on here, laugh and go "yeah, righty-o". It's like chalk and cheese. After expounding the Shiva Agamas on here, I go and look at Hindu Dharma Forums and see scholars more proficient than myself doing the same and go "whoa...okay...cool...what was I even thinking to try doing that?" and that whole 'not worthy' feeling totally overwhelms me.

Then, I go inside and take a look at myself..."who am I to think I have any knowledge on these subjects whatsoever when my mind gets blown constantly?" and I realise the limitations in regards to conversation and spiritual discussion in the much wider and broader sense. I also think to myself "who am I trying to convince here, myself? others? nobody?"

So, with the unlimited information available, I went back to Youtube, looking for a meditation which would allow my Higher Self to directly express itself...without my mind/ego getting in the way...I found a few and will sleep to them over the next month or so.

There's more I want to say here, but my mind just went totally blank...maybe that's a good thing, or maybe it's just tired of thinking, talking and it needs a rest.

However, I'm also reminded that in such spiritual discussions as these, maybe it's not appropriate to respond directly to what another has said in the 'heat of the moment' and just go away for a day or two and respond when one is in a better frame of mind to do so.

As such, my Zen sand landscape calls, and with a small rake in hand, I go and re-arrange all my 'rock islands' again.
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  #424  
Old 09-03-2018, 06:57 AM
Raziel Raziel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shivani Devi
However, I'm also reminded that in such spiritual discussions as these, maybe it's not appropriate to respond directly to what another has said in the 'heat of the moment' and just go away for a day or two and respond when one is in a better frame of mind to do so.

This is where I find that certain ideologies talk themselves in circles ... perhaps its the ultimate enabler...

Live within the moment yet go away & think on it?

Present a picture of the ultimate being/ power yet insist that it is within a squidgy easily harmed animal called a human.

State that God completes oneself yet do not present any signs of actually being complete by still continuously "seeking" answers & knowledge.

If God is the ultimate answer,truth, the way - why do those who find it still have questions?

To understand true spirituality, lifes meaning read this holy text or teaching - only to have "the way" or "the word" not actually resonate with large proportions of humanity ...

Espouse the fantastical yet do nothing .. outside of human possibility ..

On SF ...

Make claims & statements that cannot possibly be true & then call in the moderators when another begins to peel away the fašade.

Insist one speaks from the heart or understanding yet show little if another accidentally oversteps imagined boundaries.

Talk as though one is a master yet show a childish attitude "I do what I want, when I choose" (as an adult this is a given, stating it raises questions about lack of power)

It's just a snake eating its tale/tail ...

Even in response to this post someone will "give an enlightened answer" that does nothing to actually enlighten anyone but reconfirm biases they or similar believers have .... only to carry on again & again ...

Enabler..?

Just one more fix ...

.
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Now, as before - you criticise your own work."


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  #425  
Old 09-03-2018, 07:15 AM
Eelco Eelco is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raziel
This is where I find that certain ideologies talk themselves in circles ... perhaps its the ultimate enabler...

Live within the moment yet go away & think on it?

Present a picture of the ultimate being/ power yet insist that it is within a squidgy easily harmed animal called a human.

State that God completes oneself yet do not present any signs of actually being complete by still continuously "seeking" answers & knowledge.

If God is the ultimate answer,truth, the way - why do those who find it still have questions?

To understand true spirituality, lifes meaning read this holy text or teaching - only to have "the way" or "the word" not actually resonate with large proportions of humanity ...

Espouse the fantastical yet do nothing .. outside of human possibility ..

On SF ...

Make claims & statements that cannot possibly be true & then call in the moderators when another begins to peel away the fašade.

It's just a snake eating its tale/tail ...

Even in response to this post someone will "give an enlightened answer" that does nothing to actually enlighten anyone but reconfirm biases they or similar believers have .... only to carry on again & again ...

Enabler..?

Just one more fix ...

.

Yup..
So what do we seek on SF and why are we still here.

I am seriously asking myself that question often since I became and active participant again lately.
It's not as if I haven't had my fair share of interweb forum squabbles already..

Sigh...

With Love
Eelco
__________________
~~~
Been an avid searcher for over 35 years.
Mostly I found deluded fantasies..
Still the Gem's are worth it

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  #426  
Old 09-03-2018, 07:20 AM
Raziel Raziel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catsquotl
Yup..
So what do we seek on SF and why are we still here.

I am seriously asking myself that question often since I became and active participant again lately.
It's not as if I haven't had my fair share of interweb forum squabbles already..

Sigh...

With Love
Eelco

Kinda the same for me - I see lots of recycling or plagiarised thinking.

Self indoctrination with no willingness to accept other options, possibilities or brainstorm.

Perceived power by the insecure at the expense of all else.

Speak in riddles because straight talk leads to actual facts not just feelings.

Its akin to a party of explorers trekking through a jungle -with some insisting on not breaking branches..

.
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Now, as before - you criticise your own work."


- LOK
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  #427  
Old 09-03-2018, 07:22 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raziel
This is where I find that certain ideologies talk themselves in circles ... perhaps its the ultimate enabler...

Live within the moment yet go away & think on it?

Present a picture of the ultimate being yet insist that it is within a squidgy easily harmed animal called a human.

State that God completes oneself yet do not present any signs of actually being complete by still continuously "seeking" answers & knowledge.

If God is the ultimate answer,truth, the way - why do those who find it still have questions?

To understand true spirituality, lifes meaning read this holy text or teaching - only to have "the way" or "the word" not actually resonate with large proportions of humanity ...

Espouse the fantastical yet do nothing .. outside of human possibility ..

On SF ...

Make claims & statements that cannot possibly be true & then call in the moderators when another begins to peel away the fašade.
On SF ...

Make claims & statements that cannot possibly be true & then call in the moderators when another begins to peel away the fašade.

Insist one speaks from the heart or understanding yet show little if another accidentally oversteps imagined boundaries.

Talk as though one is a master yet show a childish attitude "I do what I want, when I choose" (as an adult this is a given, stating it raises questions about lack of power)

It's just a snake eating its tale/tail ...

Even in response to this post someone will "give an enlightened answer" that does nothing to actually enlighten anyone but reconfirm biases they or similar believers have .... only to carry on again & again ...

Enabler..?

Just one more fix ....
I apologise if I am the one who appears to provide that 'enlightened answer'.

Yes, it is a case of 'enabling' and not enabling the conversation to proceed in it's hitherto unconstructive format, but enabling the 'fresh approach' which may be conducive to the reconciling of differences and exploring new perspectives and ideas.

As for the Ouroborus...a lot can be said for it.

Provided the tail does not grow proportionate to the amount consumed, it eventually eats itself into oblivion and finds the Void (Nirvana).

Also, the cage of flesh (squidgy human being) means nothing to the self-actuated soul within. Just like how you drive a car, but you are not the car itself.

Yes, there is no more one can know in the state of enlightenment, as it also transcends the mind, in addition to the body, but many get stuck on the mental plane, and have an 'intellectual enlightenment' in which they merely understand their Divinity, as opposed to the heart actually diving into it and experiencing/living it through unconditional love.

Still, it's all about samskaras...thought patterns, which may take a while to dissipate before all the karma and attachment does...much like how, when one cuts the power supply from a fan, the blades keep rotating for some time before stopping.

Sure, I don't have to go on youtube and watch lectures on Kashmir Shaivism and Tibetan Buddhism, but I still have those 'interests' and I think that even after the fact, there are many different ways and angles at which the work of the 'Divine Artist' can be approached, even from within one's own philosophy or paradigm...even if that really means nothing anyway.

God does complete me...fully and my heart is totally satisfied, but my mind gets bored....and if I could overcome that, it would be great (besides sitting in meditation 24/7).
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  #428  
Old 09-03-2018, 07:40 AM
Raziel Raziel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shivani Devi
I apologise if I am the one who appears to provide that 'enlightened answer'.

Yes, it is a case of 'enabling' and not enabling the conversation to proceed in it's hitherto unconstructive format, but enabling the 'fresh approach' which may be conducive to the reconciling of differences and exploring new perspectives and ideas.

As for the Ouroborus...a lot can be said for it.

Provided the tail does not grow proportionate to the amount consumed, it eventually eats itself into oblivion and finds the Void (Nirvana).

Also, the cage of flesh (squidgy human being) means nothing to the self-actuated soul within. Just like how you drive a car, but you are not the car itself.

Yes, there is no more one can know in the state of enlightenment, as it also transcends the mind, in addition to the body, but many get stuck on the mental plane, and have an 'intellectual enlightenment' in which they merely understand their Divinity, as opposed to the heart actually diving into it and experiencing/living it through unconditional love.

Still, it's all about samskaras...thought patterns, which may take a while to dissipate before all the karma and attachment does...much like how, when one cuts the power supply from a fan, the blades keep rotating for some time before stopping.

Sure, I don't have to go on youtube and watch lectures on Kashmir Shaivism and Tibetan Buddhism, but I still have those 'interests' and I think that even after the fact, there are many different ways and angles at which the work of the 'Divine Artist' can be approached, even from within one's own philosophy or paradigm...even if that really means nothing anyway.

God does complete me...fully and my heart is totally satisfied, but my mind gets bored....and if I could overcome that, it would be great (besides sitting in meditation 24/7).


This whole thing (spirituality) is essentially watching a football game & getting invested in the tactics & players ... but not allowing or wishing for a result ..

I used to enjoy hearing a Muslim perspective, Jewish, Atheist but now it seems that its all personalised versions - build your own interpretation.

Its pointless when its all "subjective".

I can claim anything & " nobody has the right to object " - its spiritual fan fiction.
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Now, as before - you criticise your own work."


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  #429  
Old 09-03-2018, 07:53 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raziel
This whole thing (spirituality) is essentially watching a football game & getting invested in the tactics & players ... but not allowing or wishing for a result ..
The mode of observation is there, but in that observation, there is also total detachment.

I do understand what you are getting at though and a lot of people are still attached to their own 'view of things'...and I try not to be, but sometimes it still gets in the way...like when I become "insane in the membrane" (as you say).

There appears to be a misunderstanding with the actual terms of 'spirituality' and 'enlightenment'...however and that being said, it doesn't seem to be a 'one size fits all' thing either.

...and of course, the football game does not exist, the tactics and players do not exist and ergo, there is no 'result'.

The ultimate experience is to rest within the internal awareness of Self, either respective to or irrespective of anything occurring 'externally' if one even makes that delineation between what is 'within' and what is 'without' or the 'observer' vs the 'observed' and then the 'result' happens before the game is even played.
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  #430  
Old 09-03-2018, 08:00 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raziel
This whole thing (spirituality) is essentially watching a football game & getting invested in the tactics & players ... but not allowing or wishing for a result ..

I used to enjoy hearing a Muslim perspective, Jewish, Atheist but now it seems that its all personalised versions - build your own interpretation.

Its pointless when its all "subjective".

I can claim anything & " nobody has the right to object " - its spiritual fan fiction.
I noticed your edit after my previous reply, so I shall elaborate.

In regards to Brahman (the Absolute) everything is so-called "Spiritual Fan Fiction" and we even have a term for it...it's called Maya - illusion.

We can see it as being such...acknowledge it as being such, but the trick is to rise above it through awareness of it and not allow oneself to be caught up in the little 'mind games' she plays.
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