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  #51  
Old 23-01-2018, 08:22 PM
davidsun davidsun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naturesflow
I know that statement will shake a few tail feathers..hehe
Click!
Jerry Lee Lewis - Whole Lotta Shakin' Goin' On (Steve Allen Show - 1957)
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  #52  
Old 24-01-2018, 06:32 PM
Molearner Molearner is offline
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However, as the embodiment of truth, compassion, and wisdom themselves, and as such truly qualified to be teachers of humanity - out of compassion for those who are still in ignorance, and importantly, as realized fully surrendered instruments of God's Will, Who they in fact are - some of these great souls 'choose' to remain, to willingly re-incarnate, thus sacrificing themselves to the pride of ignorance, the ingratitude, the resistance and the outright hostility of human ego they will encounter by doing so, as a dispensation for the possibility of awakening, nurturing, and progressing the innate spiritual aspiration in others.

][/quote]

Jyotir,

Thanks for your input. I particularly want to focus on those who are 'surrendered instruments of God's will' who choose to re-incarnate in order to help others to progress on their spiritual journeys.

From a Christian viewpoint, we must realize that God works by authority and not by force. If God ruled by force there could be no freedom in this world. When one accepts the authority of God then God can empower us and grant us His power to do His will in this world. This same principle is at work in our daily lives. If we accept a paycheck it means we are accepting the authority of the one that compensates our endeavors on his behalf. Any power that we exert in our work is done on the behalf of our superior and in accordance with his desires. In the scriptures(Matthew 8:5-13) the centurion by recognizing 'the chain of command' was commended by Jesus for his great faith and the power of God was exercised in the healing of his son.

Look at the Lord's prayer: 'hallowed be thy name'(recognition and acceptance of God)......'thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven'. This implies that those who choose to re-incarnate have the goal of seeing the will of God done on this earth. They are willing to bypass the eternal and instead wish to help others in the progression of their spiritual journeys. It is by their surrender to God's will that they become instruments of God's will.
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  #53  
Old 24-01-2018, 10:22 PM
davidsun davidsun is offline
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.... as realized fully surrendered instruments of God's Will, Who they in fact are -
CAVEAT fellow idea 'purveyors' and 'consumers'.

Ideas pertaining to "God" and hence "God's Will" have changed throughout history and will undoubtedly continue to radically evolve further. People were 'sacrificed' to appease/please 'God(s)' in the past. Watch that you don't get 'locked in' a something that is near the end of its run. Always be open to possibly desirable 'new' developments in this regard.

Here's an excerpt from ( https://archive.org/details/pdfy-56rRUG-ov0xn05ih )Ch.14 of Seth Speaks (channeled) by Jane Roberts to (possibly) broaden perspective(s) pertaining to the concept of 'God' (note: the book was apparently electronically scanned and 'massaged' into text form, so what follows may contain errors):
Only a portion of your entire identity is "presently" familiar to you, as you know. Therefore, when you consider the question of a supreme being, you imagine a male personality with those abilities that you yourselves possess, with great emphasis upon qualities you admire. This imagined god has therefore changed throughout your centuries, mirroring man's shifting ideas of himself.

God was seen as cruel and powerful when man believed that these were desirable characteristics, needed particularly in his battle for physical survival. He projected these upon his idea of a god because he envied them and feared them. You have cast your idea of god, therefore, in your own image.

In a reality that is inconceivably multidimensional, the old concepts God are relatively meaningless. Even the term, a supreme being, is in itself distortive, for you naturally project the qualities of human nature upon it. If I told you that God was an idea, you would not understand what I meant, for you do not understand the dimensions in which an idea has its reality, or the energy that it can originate and propel. You not believe in ideas in the same way that you believe in physical objects, so if I tell you that God is an idea, you will misinterpret this to that God is less than real – nebulous,
without reality, without purpose, and without motive action.

Now your own physical image is the materialization of your idea of yourself within the properties of matter. Without the idea of yourself, your physical image would not be; yet often it is all you are aware of. The initial power and energy of that idea of yourself keeps your image alive. Ideas, then, are far more important than you realize. If you will try to accept the idea that your own existence is multidimensional, that you dwell within the medium of infinite probabilities, then you may catch a slight glimpse of the reality that is behind the word "god," and you may understand why it is almost impossible to capture a true understanding of that concept in words.

God, therefore, is first of all a creator, not of one physical universe but of an infinite variety of probable existences, far more vast than those aspects of the physical universe with which your scientists are familiar. He did not simply then send a son to live and die on one small planet. He is a part of all probabilities.

There have been parables told, and stories of beginnings. All of these have been attempts to transmit knowledge in as simple terms as possible. Often answers were given to questions that literally have no meaning outside of your own system of reality.

For example: There was no beginning, and there will be no end, yet parables have been given telling you of beginnings and endings simply because with your distorted ideas of time, beginnings and endings seem to be inseparable, valid events. As you learn to turn the focus of your attention away from physical reality and therefore experience some slight evidence of other realities, your consciousness will cling to old ideas that make true explanations impossible for you to understand. Multidimensional awareness is available to you in your dreams, however, in some trance states, and often even beneath ordinary consciousness as you go about your day.

This awareness gives personal experience with the multidimensional richness that exists not apart from but intermingled with, within, through, and all about your physical world of sense. To say that physical life is not real is to deny that reality pervades all appearance, and is a part of all appearance. In the same manner, God does not exist apart from or separate from physical reality, but exists within it and as a part of it, as he exists within and as a part of all other systems of existence.

Your Christ figure represents, symbolically, your idea of God and his relationships. …
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  #54  
Old 24-01-2018, 10:28 PM
davidsun davidsun is offline
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And here is another (pertinent to the topic under exploration here, I think) excerpt from chapter 21 of Seth Speaks, titled The Meaning of Religion:
I am including this information in this chapter on religion because it is important that you realize that spiritual ignorance is at the basis of so many of your problems, and that indeed your only limitations are spiritual ones.

The metamorphosis mentioned earlier on the part of the third personality [refrerencing the next ‘avatar’], will have such strength and power that it will call out from mankind these same qualities from within itself. The qualities have always been present. They will finally break through the veils of physical perception, extending that perception in new ways.

Now, mankind lacks such a focus. The third personality will represent that focus. There will be, incidentally, no crucifixion in that drama. That personality will indeed be multidimensional, aware of all its incarnations. It will not be oriented in terms of one sex, one color, or one race.

For the first time, therefore, it will break through the earthly concepts of personality, liberating personality. It will have the ability to show these diverse effects as it chooses. There will be many who will be afraid to accept the nature of their own reality, or to be shown the dimensions of true identity.

For several reasons, as mentioned by Ruburt, I do not want to give any more detailed information as to the name that will be used, or the land of birth. Too many might be tempted to jump into that image prematurely.

Events are not predestined. The framework for this emergence has already been set, however, within your system of probabilities. The emergence of this third personality will directly affect the original historical drama of Christ as it is now known. There is and must be interactions between them.

The exterior religious dramas are of course imperfect representations of the ever-unfolding interior spiritual realities. The various personages, the gods and prophets within religious history - these absorb the mass inner projections thrown out by those inhabiting a given time span.

Such religious dramas focus, direct, and, hopefully, clarify aspects of inner reality that need to be physically represented. These do not only appear within your own system. Many are also projected into other systems of reality. Religion per se, however, is always the external facade of inner reality. The primary spiritual existence alone gives meaning to the physical one. In the most real terms, religion should include all of the pursuits of man in his search for the nature of meaning and truth. Spirituality cannot be some isolated, specialized activity or characteristic.

Exterior religious dramas are important and valuable only to the extent that they faithfully reflect the nature of inner, private spiritual existence. To the extent that a man feels that his religion expresses such inner experience, he will feel it valid. Most religions per se, however, set up as permissible certain groups of experiences while denying others. They limit themselves by applying the principles of the sacredness of life only to your own species, and often to highly limited groups within it.

At no time will any given church be able to express the inner experience of all individuals. At no time will any church find itself in a position in which it can effectively curtail the inner experience of its members - it will only seem to do so. The forbidden experiences will simply be unconsciously expressed, gather strength and vitality, and rise up to form a counter projection which will then form another, newer exterior religious drama.

The dramas themselves do express certain inner realities, and they serve as surface reminders to those who do not trust direct experience with the inner self. They will take the symbols as reality. When they discover that this is not so, they feel betrayed. Christ spoke in terms of the father and son because in your terms, at that time, this was the method used – the story he told to explain the relationship between the inner self and the physically alive individual. No new religion really startles anyone, for the drama has already been played subjectively.

What I have said, of course, applies as much to Buddha as it does to Christ: Both accepted the inner projections and then tried to physically represent these. They were more, however, than the sum of those projections. This also should be understood. Mohammedanism fell far short. In this case the projections were of violence predominating. Love and kinship were secondary to what indeed amounted to baptism and communion through violence and blood.

In these continuous exterior religious dramas, the Hebrews played strange role. Their idea of one god was not new to them. Many ancient religions held the belief of one god above all others. This god above all others was a far more lenient god, however, than the one the Hebrews followed. Many tribes believed, quite rightly, in the inner Spirit that pervades each living thing. And they often referred to, say, the god in the tree, or the spirit in the flower. But they also accepted the reality of an overall spirit, of which these lesser spirits were but a part. All worked together harmoniously.

The Hebrews conceived of an overseer god, an angry and just and sometimes cruel god; and many sects denied, then, the idea that other living beings beside man possessed inner spirits. The earlier beliefs represented a far better representation of inner reality, in which man, observing nature, let nature speak and reveal its secrets.

The Hebrew god, however, represented a projection of a far different kind. Man was growing more and more aware of the ego, of a sense of power over nature, and many of the later miracles are presented in such a way that nature is forced to behave differently than in its usual mode. God becomes man's ally against nature.

The early Hebrew god became a symbol of man's unleashed ego. God behaved exactly as an enraged child would, had he those powers, sending thunder and lightning and fire against his enemies, destroying them. Man's emerging ego therefore brought forth emotional and psychological problems and challenges. The sense of separation from nature grew. Nature became a tool to use against others.

Sometime before the emergence of the Hebrew god these tendencies were apparent. In many ancient, now-forgotten tribal religions, recourse was also made to the gods to turn nature against the enemy. Before this time, however, man felt a part of nature, not separated from it. It was regarded as an extension of his being, as he felt an extension of its reality. One cannot use oneself as a weapon against oneself in those terms.

In those times men spoke and confided to the spirits of birds, trees, and spiders, knowing that in the interior reality beneath, the nature of these communications was known and understood. In those times, death was not feared as it is in your terms, now, for the cycle of consciousness was understood.

Man desired in one way to step out of himself, out of the framework in which he had his psychological existence, to try new challenges, to step out of a mode of consciousness into another. He wanted to study the process of his own consciousness. In one way this meant a giant separation from the inner spontaneity that had given him both peace and security. On the other hand, it offered a new creativity, in his terms.

At this point, the god inside became the god outside.

Man tried to form a new realm, attain a different kind of focus and awareness. His consciousness turned a corner outside of itself. To do this he concentrated less and less upon inner reality, and therefore began the process of inner reality only as it was projected outward into the physical world.

Before, the environment was effortlessly created and perceived by man and all other living things, knowing the nature of their inner unity. In order to begin this new venture, it was necessary to pretend that this inner unity did not exist. Otherwise the new kind of consciousness would always run back to its home for security and comfort. So it seemed that all bridges must be cut, while of course it was only a game because the inner reality always remained. The new kind of consciousness simply had to look away from it to maintain initially an independent focus.

I am speaking here in more or less historic terms for you. You must realize that the process has nothing to do with time as you know it, however. This particular kind of adventure in consciousness has occurred before, and in your terms will again.

Perception of the exterior universe then changed, however, and it seemed to be alien and apart from the individual who perceived it.

God, therefore, became an idea projected outward, independent of the individual, divorced from nature. He became the reflection of man's emerging ego, with all of its brilliance, savagery, power, and intent for mastery. The adventure was a highly creative one despite the obvious disadvantages, and represented an "evolution" of consciousness that enriched man's subjective experience, and indeed added to the dimensions of reality itself.

To be effectively organized, however, inner and outer experience had to appear as separate, disconnected events. Historically the characteristics of God changed as man's ego changed. These characteristics of the ego, however, were supported by strong inner changes.

The original propulsion of inner characteristics outward into the formation of the ego could be compared with the birth of innumerable stars - an event of immeasurable consequences that originated on a subjective level and within inner reality.

The ego, having its birth from within, therefore, must always boast of its independence while maintaining the nagging certainty of its inner origin.

The ego feared for its position, frightened that it would dissolve back into the inner self from which it came. Yet in its emergence it provided the inner self with a new kind of feedback, a different view not only of itself; but through this, the inner self was able to glimpse possibilities of development of which it had not previously been aware. In your terms, by the time of Christ, the ego was sure enough of its position so that the projected picture of God could begin to change.

The inner self is in a state of constant growth. The inner portion of each man, therefore, projected this knowledge outward. The need, the psychological and spiritual need of the species, demanded both interior and exterior alterations of great import. Qualities of mercy and understanding that had been buried could now surface. Not only privately but en masse they surged up, adding a new impetus and giving a natural "new" direction - beginning to call all portions of the self, as it knew itself, together.

So the concept of God began to change as the ego recognized its reliance upon inner reality, but the drama had to be worked out within the current framework. Mohammedanism was basically so violent precisely because Christianity was basically so gentle. Not that Christianity was not mixed with violence, or that Mohammedanism was devoid of love. But as the psyche went through its developments and battled with itself, denying some feelings and characteristics and stressing others, so the historic religious exterior dramas represented and followed these inner aspirations, struggles, and searches.

All of this material now given must be considered along with the fact that beneath these developments there are the eternal aspects and creative characteristics of a force that is both undeniable and intimate. All That Is, in other words, represents the reality from which all of us spring. All That Is, by its nature, transcends all dimensions of activity, consciousness, or reality, while being a part of each.

Behind all faces there is one face, yet this does not mean that each man's face is not his own. The further religious drama of which I have spoken, in your terms still to come, represents another stage in both the internal and external dramas in which the emergent ego becomes aware of much of its heritage. While maintaining its own status, it will be able to have much greater commerce with other portions of the self, and also to offer to the inner self opportunities of awareness that the inner self on its own could not procure.

The journeys of the gods, therefore, represent the journeys of man's own consciousness projected outward. All That Is, however, is within each such adventure. Its consciousness, and its reality, is within each man, and within the gods he has created.

The gods attain, of course, a psychic reality. I am not saying therefore that they are not real, but I am to some extent defining the nature of their reality. It is to some extent true to say: "Be careful of the gods you choose, for you will reinforce each other."
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  #55  
Old 25-01-2018, 06:35 AM
Joe Mc Joe Mc is offline
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I can't go along with "In wholeness there is peace" (peace understood as 'stillness' here) because, the way I see and experience It, 'the whole" is in constant co-motion, so "agitation" (in the sense of 'stirring excitement') and "movement" are real aspects of THE whole! process.

I can and do go along with "If one understands 'wholeness' one can 'love' and 'enjoy' instead of 'dislike' and 'fight' with what's going on in It."

I think people often react to the 'discomforts' that choices and actions which are necessarily part and parcel of both of the aforesaid ('positive' and 'negative') modalities by desiring to withdraw into the kind of peace (passivity?) I] that one experiences in 'peacefull sleep'. No 'problems' to 'solve' and so no possible 'suffering' of ''failure' there, aye what?

That course of inaction doesn't 'sit well' with 'me', however (meaning 'I' don't 'sit well' with that, except for short respite-periods. that is.)

The Life-Force (Creator? Brahman?) 'in' 'me' impels 'me' to active participation, which includes 'calling' others to join in conjoint positive-goal oriented activity.

Living and blazing (i.e. making 'marks' which point to) a 'path' in such regard, hoping it will inspire others to join with (the likes of) me 'walking' said 'walk', in chapter one of my book I wrote:

"You are not your own beginning or end. Neither are you just an offshoot or continuation of ancestral energies. You exist in resonant relationship with all else. The power that stimulates and sustains your every thought, feeling and action comes from All That Is in and around you. “In him we live, and move, and have our being” (Acts 17:28), is how this was expressed long ago, in then colloquial terminology.

Every one of us is a creative instrument ‘sounding’ in time, part and parcel of an orchestration in which each affects all and all affect each. “I am in the Father, and the Father in me” (John 14:10) didn’t just apply to the one who boldly made such claim; it is true as well of you and me. We are, all in all, joint heirs to what the marriage of sun and earth has produced, brothers and sisters who both share and contribute to a common pool of physical and psychospiritual energy.

Even as you choose to act, you are not totally autonomous, for we are all aspects of a Living Whole, which continuously renegotiates the accumulated impetus of the past, through multi-modal Self-expression in the present, into a future that is conjointly desired and conceived. In maximal perspective, it is the Spirit-of-All-Life that perpetually incarnates Itself within each and every being, who serve as vehicles for Its further expression and development, to whatever degree is made possible by their current capacity for resonance and responsivity.

On a personal level, as you exercise yourself within such process, you may cause reverberations which augment development and consequent well-being. But, if contrary to or out of phase with what goes on around you, you may also bring about repercussions that are hurtful and deleterious. As any musician well knows, attunement and cooperation are essential for there to be a harmonious expression of creative energies.

Assuredly, frustration and failure are in store for those who don’t coordinate themselves with others in space and time, whether because of inconsideration or intractability. Those who just suit themselves and not others, as they detract from more than they add to what they are part of, cause contextual impoverishment, and so ultimately precipi*tate their own defeat. It cannot be otherwise. Those who simply consume all that they can, who don’t set aside enough and do what is necessary to seed the next spring, must eventually suffer conditions of stringency. Even a devoted mother, finally reaching the point of exhaustion, will become averse to a child that is constantly demanding. You may draw your own, more far-ranging conclusions from such examples, by analogy.

Those who are out of step with or oppose the progression of Life around them naturally end up withering, the flow of energy sustaining them disrupted by dissonance, reduced to a trickle, in time of critical shortage cut off completely. Conversely, as is true for a child who learns to pump in time with a swing, those who synchronize their movements with goings on around them reach great heights, quite exhilaratingly.

On a transpersonal scale, as everyone contributes to the co-motion, waves of thought, feeling and behavior ripple and ricochet around the globe, cumulatively adding to the vibration of the platform on which we stand, building in resonance as they sweep through the race. At present in particular, with populations soaring and availability diminishing, these are approaching a crescendo of intensity. Those who are conscientious are becoming more loving and co-ordinated in the process; those who are selfish, more paranoid and alienated. Those who are hopeful are buoyantly choosing paths of constructive action; those without hope are sinking deeper into depression and degeneracy. Tension is mounting as people take sides; polarities of attitude and expectancy are reaching extremes.

We are approaching a snapping point. Ultimately, triggered by ecological breakdown, consequences will be cataclysmic. Depending on whether aligned with positive or negative trends, some will move higher up on Life’s evolutionary ladder, others will fall—our dilemma will be resolved by a massive catharsis.

Take heed, for what you now choose affects, for better or worse, what happens in the future, not only to you but also to those who you are most cogently involved with. Since you are an integral part of Life’s process, you are bound to move and be moved, one way or another, by current developments and ongoing themes.

But also take heart, if you are one who subscribes to what is good. As times of want alternate with times of plenty, the crises engendered, though painful and upsetting to go through, are on the whole very creative. Attributed to
‘the hand of God’ by some and to ‘natural selection’ by others, a process of culling then takes place which, far from being random, is positively discriminating and therefore, in final terms, constructive.

Individuals and groups that are reciprocal and sharing emerge ascendant, resonantly reinforced by one another, despite general shortage, overcoming their difficulties. Those that are unresponsive and unrelated atrophy in isolation; unless they change for the better, they weaken and fail eventually. Those that are antagonistic and oppositional fare worst of all; their energy depleted by friction and their momentum destroyed by clashes and collisions, their creative thrust is halted and reduced to nullity.

With every denouement, asynchronous and discordant elements are deleted, while more cooperative and coordinated embodiments proceed forth, the degree of harmonious integration increasing as each new stage succeeds.
"

That is a good description of the interdependence or image of Indra's net and how obvious and very subtle our entwined lives really are on earth. On a good day this is displayed in all sorts of human activities. Especially in things like the nursing professions etc. who economically and politically are denigrated etc. and have been for along time. So yes without the basic co-operation of the baker the butcher the candle stick maker we would find it hard I think but the basic goodness of people is fairly well exploited albeit perhaps unintentionally, the best Rats win as one school teacher put it one day.

That being said, there is a perfection to it all that can be seen from time to time perhaps this is from a higher vantage point, a divine justice if you like. As you have alluded to a perfect creation where all the stones that are placed into the bag become smooth by 'co -motion'. I say a higher vantage point because although i've often been privy to this expansive insight into interdependence and synchronicity, the glimpses have never formed a basis or stayed with me. To describe it I would say I ascended from that new perspective back into give me my 'Tax' man and don't exploit me with your Harvardian Economic laissez faire education. Now there is a new one David, 'Harvardian', it's new to me anyway

I suppose i mean there is peace in the Whole, in the sense, that the Whole is alive, peace is alive and it is living. It is not necessarily the painted white dove that Cecilia the black lady painted on the wall of the community center last year but it could be too. To go to extremes on this one i could posit that Jesus was at perfect peace and congruence at all times even when he was hung up to die and in pain. So he was at peace but this is not a view im putting forward because it someone takes us away from the realms of infliction of pain and responsibility for its aversion etc.

Thanks for sharing there was a great deal of congruence in what you said in your book and in what i was thinking inside about the whole, interdependence and synchronicity. Joe.
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Old 25-01-2018, 07:53 AM
davidsun davidsun is offline
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Originally Posted by Joe Mc
I suppose i mean there is peace in the Whole, in the sense, that the Whole is alive, peace is alive and it is living. It is not necessarily the painted white dove that Cecilia the black lady painted on the wall of the community center last year but it could be too. To go to extremes on this one i could posit that Jesus was at perfect peace and congruence at all times even when he was hung up to die and in pain. So he was at peace but this is not a view im putting forward because it someone takes us away from the realms of infliction of pain and responsibility for its aversion etc.
The 'peace' that comes from 'knowledge' and 'acceptance' of what(ever) Is!

As 'martial' and 'marital' artists both well know, such 'knowledge' and 'acceptance' allows for (enables?) one to 'appreciate' and creatively 'utilize' what(ever) Is in 'positive' ways, instead of 'clashing' or 'warring' with it in 'negative' ones. Reprising a relevant (in this regard) passage from my book:
Then, because no longer preoccupied with dreams of idealization-fantasy fulfillment and schemes aimed at attaining the same, they begin to be open to truly savoring and appreciating actualities and possibilities that are inherent in, and so embrace and act to creatively enhance, their and others present condition and circumstance, whatever this happens to be. As a result of becoming disillusioned regarding the possibility of actualizing and enjoying what, because of comparison-based sensation and logic, they previously mentally and emotionally fixated on as ‘ideal’, by default as it were, without specifically intending to, they organically rediscover and reexperience the beauty and bounteousness of Life as is.

In due course, such rediscovery and reexperience sparks a conversion in one’s outlook and mode of operation. Because one then experientially knows disappointment and dissatisfaction to be idealization-associated blights, one becomes more wary of and less likely to be lured by fantasy-based temptations and, if and when one gets ‘snared’ by them, more quickly frees oneself from such entanglement by re*establishing wholesome relationship with what is in truth. Gradually, more and more often, and each time more fully, recognizing the bounteousness of experience and ongoing opportunity for discovery, development and joyful expression afforded by Life as It is to be a phenomenal boon, one proceeds with an attitude of greater and greater appreciation and consequently love. As the quest for ‘more’ desire-satisfaction then becomes superfluous, one increasingly enjoys and, so, more and more ‘naturally’ acts to enhance developments in Life’s garden, whatever one’s situation and whoever one may be with. Such progression ‘naturally’ culminates in one’s actualizing totally positive modality and flourishing in complete psychospiritual communion with Life processes one is part and parcel of, as all one’s ‘giving’ and ‘receiving’ becomes geared to this.
The 'dove' is 'love', and 'love' induces a feeling (attitude?) of 'peace-full-ness', aye what?

Am delighted that you 'groove' with the kind of stuff that I 'groove' with, and vice versa, Joe. I find dancing (together) with one such as you very meaning-full.

P.S. "Peace-full-ness" without 'love' and 'love-full-ness' without 'understanding' and 'appreciation' are just 'put on' 'dresses'; that is, they are would-like-to-be or wish-to-appear-to-be 'charades', which of course may be emotionally 'compelled' behaviors (i.e. not really 'elective'). Hence M. Scott Peck's observation that:
"Many so-called religious people are essentially Stage II people, in the sense that they have blind faith in God, and do not question His existence. With blind faith comes humility and a willingness to obey and serve. The majority of good, law-abiding citizens never move out of Stage II." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._Scott_Peck
A relevant meme in this regard: https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...c4&oe=5AEB769C

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Last edited by davidsun : 25-01-2018 at 12:01 PM.
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Old 13-03-2018, 07:56 AM
Joe Mc Joe Mc is offline
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Originally Posted by davidsun
The 'peace' that comes from 'knowledge' and 'acceptance' of what(ever) Is!

As 'martial' and 'marital' artists both well know, such 'knowledge' and 'acceptance' allows for (enables?) one to 'appreciate' and creatively 'utilize' what(ever) Is in 'positive' ways, instead of 'clashing' or 'warring' with it in 'negative' ones. Reprising a relevant (in this regard) passage from my book:
Then, because no longer preoccupied with dreams of idealization-fantasy fulfillment and schemes aimed at attaining the same, they begin to be open to truly savoring and appreciating actualities and possibilities that are inherent in, and so embrace and act to creatively enhance, their and others present condition and circumstance, whatever this happens to be. As a result of becoming disillusioned regarding the possibility of actualizing and enjoying what, because of comparison-based sensation and logic, they previously mentally and emotionally fixated on as ‘ideal’, by default as it were, without specifically intending to, they organically rediscover and reexperience the beauty and bounteousness of Life as is.

In due course, such rediscovery and reexperience sparks a conversion in one’s outlook and mode of operation. Because one then experientially knows disappointment and dissatisfaction to be idealization-associated blights, one becomes more wary of and less likely to be lured by fantasy-based temptations and, if and when one gets ‘snared’ by them, more quickly frees oneself from such entanglement by re*establishing wholesome relationship with what is in truth. Gradually, more and more often, and each time more fully, recognizing the bounteousness of experience and ongoing opportunity for discovery, development and joyful expression afforded by Life as It is to be a phenomenal boon, one proceeds with an attitude of greater and greater appreciation and consequently love. As the quest for ‘more’ desire-satisfaction then becomes superfluous, one increasingly enjoys and, so, more and more ‘naturally’ acts to enhance developments in Life’s garden, whatever one’s situation and whoever one may be with. Such progression ‘naturally’ culminates in one’s actualizing totally positive modality and flourishing in complete psychospiritual communion with Life processes one is part and parcel of, as all one’s ‘giving’ and ‘receiving’ becomes geared to this.
The 'dove' is 'love', and 'love' induces a feeling (attitude?) of 'peace-full-ness', aye what?

Am delighted that you 'groove' with the kind of stuff that I 'groove' with, and vice versa, Joe. I find dancing (together) with one such as you very meaning-full.

P.S. "Peace-full-ness" without 'love' and 'love-full-ness' without 'understanding' and 'appreciation' are just 'put on' 'dresses'; that is, they are would-like-to-be or wish-to-appear-to-be 'charades', which of course may be emotionally 'compelled' behaviors (i.e. not really 'elective'). Hence M. Scott Peck's observation that:
"Many so-called religious people are essentially Stage II people, in the sense that they have blind faith in God, and do not question His existence. With blind faith comes humility and a willingness to obey and serve. The majority of good, law-abiding citizens never move out of Stage II." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._Scott_Peck
A relevant meme in this regard: https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...c4&oe=5AEB769C


The Peace that Passeth all Understanding What might that mean to you ?

" I've got a Peaceful Easy Feeling and you know I know you won't let me down because I'm already standing on the ground " The Eagles.

Poverty is an incredibly ugly thing to live in and be in what's good about it ?

Best regards, Joe.
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To Thine own Self be True

The Frost performs its secret ministry,Unhelped by any wind. Samuel Taylor Coleridge

And you won't find that Love comes easy but that Love is always right.

All Intellect falls prey to Love's Glory ! Rumi

He Made the Lock, He also Made the Key ! Rumi
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  #58  
Old 13-03-2018, 11:50 AM
Iamit Iamit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Mc
A thought or idea that has been kicking around with me for a couple of years now. I thought i'd write it down.


Life can only be understood as a whole. When we try to squeeze life into something called an individual entity with an individual brain we will definitely come up with answers, connotations, permeations but we cannot expect to have our questions answered concerning deeper matters and if we try to answer our quandaries using the attitude of the single individual brain etc. to experience this wisdom regarding deeper matters expect to be frustrated. We will be lost in the circularity of the ego self with some smidgens of purported freedom thrown in to the search on occasion which keeps the contusion evolving and frustrated. In wholeness there is peace. Real authenticity and uniqueness and individuality contains the whole and is never far from wholeness even when the task to hand seems very worldly. As a man once said to Tiger Woods back in his day, You're never far from the hole !!!

That sets up another task of sorting one from another, in this case between what is ego generated (undesirable) and deeper wisdom (desirable).

From a nondual perspective each is the other and the One Love in Action dreaming difference where there is none. And the problem is transcended/resolved/disappears.
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  #59  
Old 14-03-2018, 07:55 AM
Joe Mc Joe Mc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamit
That sets up another task of sorting one from another, in this case between what is ego generated (undesirable) and deeper wisdom (desirable).

From a nondual perspective each is the other and the One Love in Action dreaming difference where there is none. And the problem is transcended/resolved/disappears.

What I think I meant is the Ego self functions out of limitation. So it's singular view and its singular philosophy lets say of death for example is its default, in other words, that which we call death only happens to me. So that idea can pervade towards a 'wholesome uniquess' or towards a self centred partial idea of life manifesting in different ways in the world. So perhaps the idea of 'Wholeness' in this respect which I am using as a pointer, shows to me a bigger picture. That there is no lack or limitation in the ideas of wholeness Whole poverty is coming to those who believe today that they are wholly rich for example as well as whole justice is coming too...lots of wholeness is coming and in a non dualistic sense 'Wholeness' has never left or never arrived of course or gone anywhere ? Sorry if all that sounds a bit confusing, I'm trying to be honest because i really really love that insight about wholeness which has been with me since childhood ? All the best.
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To Thine own Self be True

The Frost performs its secret ministry,Unhelped by any wind. Samuel Taylor Coleridge

And you won't find that Love comes easy but that Love is always right.

All Intellect falls prey to Love's Glory ! Rumi

He Made the Lock, He also Made the Key ! Rumi
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  #60  
Old 14-03-2018, 10:57 AM
Iamit Iamit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Mc
What I think I meant is the Ego self functions out of limitation. So it's singular view and its singular philosophy lets say of death for example is its default, in other words, that which we call death only happens to me. So that idea can pervade towards a 'wholesome uniquess' or towards a self centred partial idea of life manifesting in different ways in the world. So perhaps the idea of 'Wholeness' in this respect which I am using as a pointer, shows to me a bigger picture. That there is no lack or limitation in the ideas of wholeness Whole poverty is coming to those who believe today that they are wholly rich for example as well as whole justice is coming too...lots of wholeness is coming and in a non dualistic sense 'Wholeness' has never left or never arrived of course or gone anywhere ? Sorry if all that sounds a bit confusing, I'm trying to be honest because i really really love that insight about wholeness which has been with me since childhood ? All the best.

There is much going on in the manifestation of duality. It depends which of that you include as wholeness/Oneness manifest and which you exclude because you find some of it unacceptable, suffering for instance, your own and the suffering of others.

Oneness is fully all of it without exception. When this process of including all, and I really mean all, is completed, the feeling of disconnection from Oneness ends. It also needs to be said that Oneness is so completely all, that it is already you feeling disconnected so that feeling itself is not disconnected!!! If you manage to get rid of that feeling, you will be no more or less totally connected to Oneness than you are right now!
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