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  #21  
Old 15-01-2018, 03:11 PM
davidsun davidsun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrystalSong
it would be fair in some way to call me an Animist because I see/experience consciousness in all living things. Somethings operate at higher vibrational frequency's through opening their hearts, these beings we recognize as the saints, sages, mystics, Jesus, Buddha's of our times, yet it all comes from the same Source Pool of energy, it is Source/God/Creator expressing in conjunction with that illuminated Being.
Grooving with all that you said CrystalSong. Just picking up on this snippet because some folks may relate to 'Panentheist' as being a less 'demonic' label than 'Animist', though IMO they essentially reference the same thought, feeling and belief constellation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panentheism

I just include this link to stimulate further consideration(s) along these lines. I actually think your description (hence 'definition' in a way) is 'better' (i.e. more 'to the point' and hence potentially more functional).
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  #22  
Old 15-01-2018, 05:01 PM
CrystalSong CrystalSong is offline
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Thanks davidsun :)

I do find the difference between Panentheist, Pantheist, and Animist to be an extreme spitting of hairs that that is uniquely human.
Seriously its the stuff of chuckles, filing and labeling to the ninth degree! lol

When the feet hit the pavement people who want to be triggered by anyone different than them will not need such extreme subtly for fuel.
I was raised with people who could become extremely defensive if you were anything other than their branch of their particular ideology and interpretation of their sect of their particular religion. Anything outside that very narrow slice was immediately labeled "Godless Heathen bound for Hell and hide the women and children!"
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  #23  
Old 15-01-2018, 07:44 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Originally Posted by Khalli
Seems reasonable, even paradise isn't paradise without freedom.

And why do men think women should be subordinate to them?
They are to be our partners, equals in life.

I have to say...this topic is very timely to me.
Lillith and Samael as archetypal aspects of our existence need to be revisited from time to time on our spiritual journeys...

Here are a few key excerpts I thought were informative, usually at the top or bottom of these historically fascinating articles...

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/people-cultures-in-the-bible/people-in-the-bible/lilith/
Quote:
Lilith’s relationship with Adam is a different matter. Their conflict is one of patriarchal authority versus matriarchal desire for emancipation, and the warring couple cannot reconcile. They represent the archetypal battle of the sexes. Neither attempts to solve their dispute or to reach some kind of compromise where they take turns being on top (literally and figuratively). Man cannot cope with woman’s desire for freedom, and woman will settle for nothing less. In the end, they both lose.
https://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/r/rape_of_eve_the.html
Quote:
Many women possess the Lilith aspect of the feminine personality, Samael in men. This is an personality aspect which represents the witch's knife giving her the determination and strength to depart or cut away from taking the sheltered and traditional path of womanhood, a path usually male and power driven. The nontraditional path leads its feminine traveler on a very different road than the one traveled by the average woman, often at first to isolation. In the feeling of complete aloneness, and sometimes shame, the person asks, "What have I done?" But such isolation and shame when accepted as challenges can issue forth fortitude. After healing oneself from wounds inflicted by ordinary society the woman decides whether she is going to repeatedly accept those wounds or fight back. If her Lilith aspect fully develops, she fights back by deciding the best ways of meeting numerous situations. She uses her knife to destroy injurious situations, and defend herself. Performing her tasks may by slow and arduous but she seeks self-equality and justice. She seeks selfhood as Lilith did when storming heaven's gate.
I think Lillith represents the human desire for acceptance in parity, not in subservience, oppression or slavery. Women's desire for parity is necessary for true love, authentic love, between partners. For real connection and not conditional or qualified or exchange-based "connection".

This radical idea -- that authentic love should be the foundation of all human relationship -- because authentic love is the ground of our being -- was worth killing, enslaving, castigating, and demonising women who were evolved enough spiritually to seek it out.

Lillith
as independent woman with her own mind and voice was cast by the crusty old farts of the day as a mystically powerful, enticing, yet demanding [she-dog] with all manner of horrid traits...because she wanted to share in love as true partners and she didn't want to be dominated. Why was this archetype even necessary? Because...misogyny and prejudices, primal fears, lust for power and domination, etc.

The very truth of what is, was tarred and feathered. But now, folks are beginning to see that this parity and this authentic love is true and good...no coercion or power over required, as domination will never allow for the authentic love that yields a true desire for the beloved (in a woman for a man she loves).

Samael
(known as Azrael in Arabic writings), also known as the Angel of Death, has been cast in Christianity as the ultimate bad guy but the reality is much more complex. Like Lillith. There is a recognition even historically that Samael held spaces for darkness and thus also for light up through physical death, which in turn critically allows humanity to grow and exercise free will in a material existence. But also that he is serving the greater good in so doing. Likewise, mortality and death has been seen as both good and bad...as a somehow unfortunate part of material existence (one that came with the good or intended outcome of leaving the garden as humanity left to embark on our spiritual journey with self-awareness), or even as an evil curse, by traditional religion -- but also as something that gave weight and meaning to the duration of our existence here. To many on their paths now, however, we see death is not something to be feared but rather to be embraced on our journey.

We need the space to explore and reclaim and transmute the energies that we are...and to re-direct the darkest and most destructive energies or aspects to serve a greater purpose. In a great many cases, there is no "gun to your head"...so where is the ownership? What's that?...the devil made you do it? LOL....please. That's the whole point, to take the tough decisions when faced with the opportunity to use and abuse, and to take the ownership for those choices, and to grow up.

From Wiki:

Quote:
Samael (Hebrew: סַמָּאֵל‬, "Venom of God"[1] or "Poison of God", or "Blindness of God" Samael or Samil)[2][3][4] is an important archangel in Talmudic and post-Talmudic lore, a figure who is an accuser, seducer, and destroyer, and has been regarded as both good and evil. Rabbinical writings describe Samael as the guardian angel of Esau (and the Roman empire)[5] and a patron of Edom.

He is considered in Talmudic texts to be a member of the heavenly host (with often grim and destructive duties). One of Samael's greatest roles in Jewish lore is that of the main archangel of death. He remains one of God's servants even though he condones the sins of man. As an angel, Samael resides in the seventh heaven, although he is declared to be the chief angel of the fifth heaven, the reason for this being the presence of the throne of glory in the seventh heaven.[6]
What I'm saying is that...from my perspective, the traditional interpretations are fear-based and are not grounded in an awareness of authentic love between partners. The traditional interpretations assume men require the subjugation, degradation, and even violent treatment (coercive sex without consent as normal and mandatory) of women, just like modern pornography. Because of that, a woman's natural power and her primordial (dark) energy (the Yin) must be evil. As represented by Lillith. And Samael, who is tasked with holding the antimatter and thus the space necessary for material existence and free will, must be evil. Since men's free will allows men to use and abuse others and generally do a lot of bad stuff, as well as the good stuff.

IMO this is basically scapegoating Source and/or the angels (specific ones) for our individual weaknesses and misaligned choices and behaviours, which is on so many levels just ridiculous. Unless there is a literal gun to your head (or equivalent), then it's about time we began to take ownership, and not by saying OK as of right now, bad is good and what we've been doing is now OK so carry on. But rather by saying, hey it's not OK and it's never been OK...it's time to man up and face the truth square in the eye. It's time we took the hard choices and quit perpetrating x, y, and z rubbish on those in our lives, full stop. And it's time to see why we used to need these rather vile archetypes...to hold our fear and our hatred for women and for our own weaknesses. That's why revisiting these archetypes and how we view them is so meaningful, IMO.

Peace & blessings
7L
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Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

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  #24  
Old 18-01-2018, 01:58 PM
davidsun davidsun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7luminaries
What I'm saying is that...from my perspective, the traditional interpretations are fear-based and are not grounded in an awareness of authentic love between partners. The traditional interpretations assume men require the subjugation, degradation, and even violent treatment (coercive sex without consent as normal and mandatory) of women, just like modern pornography. Because of that, a woman's natural power and her primordial (dark) energy (the Yin) must be evil. As represented by Lillith. And Samael, who is tasked with holding the antimatter and thus the space necessary for material existence and free will, must be evil. Since men's free will allows men to use and abuse others and generally do a lot of bad stuff, as well as the good stuff.

IMO this is basically scapegoating Source and/or the angels (specific ones) for our individual weaknesses and misaligned choices and behaviours, which is on so many levels just ridiculous. Unless there is a literal gun to your head (or equivalent), then it's about time we began to take ownership, and not by saying OK as of right now, bad is good and what we've been doing is now OK so carry on. But rather by saying, hey it's not OK and it's never been OK...it's time to man up and face the truth square in the eye. It's time we took the hard choices and quit perpetrating x, y, and z rubbish on those in our lives, full stop. And it's time to see why we used to need these rather vile archetypes...to hold our fear and our hatred for women and for our own weaknesses. That's why revisiting these archetypes and how we view them is so meaningful, IMO.

Peace & blessings
7L
People hang on to 'old' traditions thinking that these are what 'give' their 'present' lives meaning, legitimacy, a sense of belonging, security, etc. - like what's involved in 'ancestor worship', and 'revered lineages' of gurus and disciples, reams/scrolls of 'holy scriptures', 'popes', 'royal families', etc. They have all had a creative function in terms of helping humanity (civilization?) to evolve to its present point, but they are clearly a 'drag' and, in many cases very counterproductive, in terms of 'humanity' evolving further NOW. (Not that such 'traditional' sources can't be selectively 'gleaned' for perspective, wisdom, advice, etc., mind you - I personally do a lot of such 'gleaning' myself.)

Clearly though, it's high time that 'new' Source-Manifestation and Yin-Yang archetypes (models? understandings?) fully overdub, and so functionally replace, the 'old' in psyche-space.

Here's a video which I think can help uproot whatever 'grip' Eve and Adam and/or Lilith and Adam stereotypes still have in the minds of those who 'grok' its (the video's) 'message:

https://www.facebook.com/10001143954...3239037067409/

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Last edited by davidsun : 18-01-2018 at 05:42 PM.
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  #25  
Old 18-01-2018, 05:01 PM
EndoftheRoad EndoftheRoad is offline
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Could not agree more David, on my journey I've found this same space of a loop which goes unhealed for so many. Where I view Archetypes as a way to glean into old models, its as if the same story is perpetuated repeatedly and thus perverted again into X vs Y with no hope of Z as one wishes to topple the other. I'm far from a flower child, and the saying Make Love Not War while comical makes sense, its called understanding the past, live in the present, the future will take care of itself. We need to honor our Masculine and Feminine natures, let them dance rather than point.
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  #26  
Old 18-01-2018, 07:37 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Originally Posted by EndoftheRoad
Could not agree more David, on my journey I've found this same space of a loop which goes unhealed for so many. Where I view Archetypes as a way to glean into old models, its as if the same story is perpetuated repeatedly and thus perverted again into X vs Y with no hope of Z as one wishes to topple the other. I'm far from a flower child, and the saying Make Love Not War while comical makes sense, its called understanding the past, live in the present, the future will take care of itself. We need to honor our Masculine and Feminine natures, let them dance rather than point.

End, hello there...who perverts the story? These archetypes are simply the way the most powerful amongst us have historically viewed humanity and presented humanity to itself. As the self-designated mediators (how convenient for social control and perpetuation of order) between the infant humanity and Self, Mystery, and Source.

But this is exactly how many, if not most, still understand themselves. From within these limiting boxes. And so if folks say hey live in the now and the rest is cared for, what does that mean to many? Live as you are now...that seems easy enough. And that is exactly the perpetuation you speak of.

The future now which is free of limitations and oppression -- free of those old boxes that require one be stacked on top of the other -- can only be transmuted and brought forward consciously, and with a direct application of authentic love. It doesn't "naturally" happen in the sense of living unconsciously and following instinct or ego, like animals and creatures of lower orders of sentience. Change (transmutation, transcendence) only happens when we consciously take ownership, and consciously bring our love from our centre into our manifest world. First and foremost impacting our own intent, thought, word, and deed.

But change isn't possible without addressing "The Gap". There's a gap there that most don't realise is there, or else they do but don't wish to live there and heal it. It's the integrity gap. This is where one deals with the fact that he or she on some level doesn't want to change and prefers the utilitarian, power-over situation. The master-slave, rigged game of who-can-manipulate (control, oppress)-who situation.

If one yearns for a different, more authentically loving way on the level of the heart and mind but still gets off on the "old way", on the degradation, the coercion and the power over (i.e., think most categories of porn), then his (or her) entire being has to be spiritually undone, healed, and rewired. That's not just going to happen naturally, and change in this area certainly won't feel natural until one is fully rewired...as what feels "natural" is largely meaningless to humanity. We are not just simple animals and we are hugely conditioned by cultural currents and norms regarding what's acceptable and what's preferred. It's what one has been conditioned to desire or want or prefer...and cultural conditioning hugely impacts even the strongest of instincts, like preferences for food or for sexual partners.

Let's take the sexual instinct and look at how it is as easily conditioned as anything else, believe it or not...

In Victorian times only a bit of cleavage or an ankle was seen as highly arousing to men...whereas now it is more commonly the violent and degrading stuff, even like snuff porn, gang-ups, or rape porn that arouses. The bit of ankle won't do it as most men have been conditioned to see that as everyday flesh. Additionally, many gents today have been further conditioned to prefer a lot of violence in their smut -- purely based on social conditioning which in the modern era has rewired and remapped their natural, pure instinct onto a violent and degraded template. Men aren't born with a "natural" proclivity to watching a woman being beaten or strangled whilst being raped. That is an unnatural taste that they have been conditioned to associate with arousal and thus to THINK is natural if they were born in the recent modern era. Likewise, say in Victorian times, this sort of smut would have turned loads of men off as they had not been conditioned to tolerate it. Violent smut will however feel "natural" to many men today, until they consciously sort and rewire their very being from the inside out...and commit to staying with it on their journey. And until men do this, it will be extremely hard to close that integrity gap and move beyond the current boxes. It's not going to just naturally happen when so many men today cannot see women in the fullness of their humanity, due to the pervasive and toxic effects of violent smut and various cultural memes that convey hatred, contempt, or disrespect toward women. It won't just happen naturally to anyone but rather only with a conscious choice to re-condition their hearts and souls to align the sexual instinct within the context or driver of authentic love, which honours the unique sacredness of each person -- and which is not about violence, disconnected sexual contexts, or random body parts.

The good thing is, much of the degraded cultural norms and conditioning can be treated like an addiction and thus men can recover from this, once they consciously name it and swear it off, wholly discarding the utilitarian and exploitative contexts which "allow" for the powerful to use the weaker as a receptacle, so long as they lie, deceive, or connive the other party into "consenting". Big hint: without full and complete equality and freedom from the need to subjugate or appease others, there is always coercion at play, from systemic to personal levels. This is apparent in our economic system, as we mostly all must work and bootlick the boss...and it is equally at play socially whenever one or more groups is vulnerable, oppressed, or marginalised to the degree that they do not accommodate the power group. Women too have a lot of enabling and similarly negative norms and conditioning from the vulnerable, marginalised, oppressed/power-under position, which they too need to consciously swear off, wholly discard, and recover from.

Yes, I realise these statuses do in fact describe the current reality for most of humanity. There is almost no concept of authentic love in partnership aside from poets and mystics, either historically or at present. Women are not suddenly equalised or living in parity with men just because it is the only way forward for humanity. Just because it is the only way (full stop) to authentic, sustainable, long-term mutual love and mutual desire in partnership --- (much less to peace on earth ! ). But we've just been saying (or I have ) that the old ways are rot, based on rot...and rot is no longer serving the purpose it once may have for humanity. It needs to be wholly binned in order to make room for healthy, sustainable ways of relationship and being, and we can start by actively and consciously choosing to free our hearts and minds to love and express intimacy in ways that are good, true, and beautiful. We can choose to heal the sickness we have sown amongst ourselves...that is our choice to make and we are free to do so at any time. That's a very good thing.

The other very good thing is that opening to authentic love is doable...opening to grace and Spirit is doable...actively choosing these things is doable. And these things can bolster and carry one forward on their journey whilst we heal ourselves. ... Whilst they unlearn the rot and openly embrace alignment with centre and with spirit. Not naturally in the unconscious, instinct- or urge-based sense...as self-aware sentience is never just instinct. But naturally in the sense of realisation of the authentic love we are, and of consciously choosing to live from the heart centre, from the heart-led consciousness which is the ground of our being.

Peace & blessings
7L
Peace
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Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke

Last edited by 7luminaries : 18-01-2018 at 09:00 PM.
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  #27  
Old 18-01-2018, 08:16 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsun
People hang on to 'old' traditions thinking that these are what 'give' their 'present' lives meaning, legitimacy, a sense of belonging, security, etc. - like what's involved in 'ancestor worship', and 'revered lineages' of gurus and disciples, reams/scrolls of 'holy scriptures', 'popes', 'royal families', etc. They have all had a creative function in terms of helping humanity (civilization?) to evolve to its present point, but they are clearly a 'drag' and, in many cases very counterproductive, in terms of 'humanity' evolving further NOW. (Not that such 'traditional' sources can't be selectively 'gleaned' for perspective, wisdom, advice, etc., mind you - I personally do a lot of such 'gleaning' myself.)

Clearly though, it's high time that 'new' Source-Manifestation and Yin-Yang archetypes (models? understandings?) fully overdub, and so functionally replace, the 'old' in psyche-space.

Here's a video which I think can help uproot whatever 'grip' Eve and Adam and/or Lilith and Adam stereotypes still have in the minds of those who 'grok' its (the video's) 'message:

https://www.facebook.com/10001143954...3239037067409/


DavidSun, hello there and I really appreciate your affirmation. I couldn't agree more. Whatever power many of these traditional archetypes has, comes from our understanding of our relationship with ourselves, others, Spirit, and all that is. In many cases, that power is an artificial power-over, which as you say may have served some purpose in the distant past but our willing participation in our own mind control is no longer is required or healthy.

The dictation of our history and our archetypes and what they mean has often been misused, to oppress and control. It is the result of having given our power of understanding and ownership away at earlier points in time. We are ready now and in many cases, we are long overdue to reclaim our understanding and our ownership of our own stories.

The thing is, none of this is "natural" as some folks may assume. So I want to speak to that more in my response to you and thanks for your patience I feel that the unqualified use of that term (natural) is extremely misleading when we speak of sentient, self-aware beings with highly developed cultures and social structures. In fact, whatever humanity has been conditioned or acculturated to will seem "natural". That is, we create what is natural and right for us, and that is what will seem natural and right.

That is why the spiritual journey is so important to each of us, and to humanity as a whole. The spiritual journey is all about opening to authentic love and to Spirit, and aligning ourselves with the Authentic Love that is the ground of all being. The journey yields (or is intended to do so) a deeper apprehension that what is most natural is in fact exactly equivalent to what is most manifestly aligned with authentic love. What is manifest authentic love? Actively desiring and actively seeking the good of the other(s) equally to the self, and of self to others.


(((natural))) = (((authentic love)))


P.S. thanks for the vid link - I will check it out.
Peace & blessings
7L
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Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
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  #28  
Old 18-01-2018, 10:11 PM
Lorelyen Lorelyen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsun
People hang on to 'old' traditions thinking that these are what 'give' their 'present' lives meaning, legitimacy, a sense of belonging, security, etc. - like what's involved in 'ancestor worship', and 'revered lineages' of gurus and disciples, reams/scrolls of 'holy scriptures', 'popes', 'royal families', etc. They have all had a creative function in terms of helping humanity (civilization?) to evolve to its present point, but they are clearly a 'drag' and, in many cases very counterproductive, in terms of 'humanity' evolving further NOW. (Not that such 'traditional' sources can't be selectively 'gleaned' for perspective, wisdom, advice, etc., mind you - I personally do a lot of such 'gleaning' myself.)

Clearly though, it's high time that 'new' Source-Manifestation and Yin-Yang archetypes (models? understandings?) fully overdub, and so functionally replace, the 'old' in psyche-space.

Not sure what to make of this. The “old traditions” don’t stand still. They’re grown upon. But they are the foundations of that growing. To make a deliberate break is useless without a good reason (e.g. religions have had their day and we have to move on. That's a good reason). But human nature hasn’t significantly changed through recorded history. Are we more civilised than when the Romans invented the word 2500 years ago, maybe more? Has the concept of spirit and spirituality changed? Have the biological functions of the genders changed?

What I see these days is a dilution of many old traditions manifesting as old wine in new bottles. Prostitution and distortion to make them quick and easy for the instant gratification world. Yes, sure we need new archetypes for the mundane meanderings of humankind but aren’t these emerging regardless of anything happening in the new age spiritual industry? I was amazed to see the attempts to “update” Lilith: put her in Vogue fashions all because someone, presumably a feminist, has taken a single aspect of her – she wanted to be on top – and loves the idea of a bit of sleaze with it. Ok, you can have a New Lilith; break with the old tradition, but why not call her something else to pave an emancipatory way? Or choose those from real life – now that would break with tradition all right: Florence Nightingale, Joan of Arc, the Bronte sisters, Emmeline Pankhurst – all of whom have shifted the archetype by challenging tradition.

I see a load of new jargon creeping in – bound to happen when a new “current” tries to commandeer the market place. Many are laced with factoids that stand up to no critical examination (which doesn’t mean they can’t be turned into a grimoire by someone persistent enough but it could be very hard work and lead to disillusion which approaches having some providence usually don’t. I see self-opinionated gurus in abundance on the web, some sincere, some fraudulent. They’ll have their day and disappear.

I see names come and go here. People with emotional and/or mental problems, people bored with their mundane lives, the lost and lonely… evidently the current they selected didn’t work so…what? Do they give up? Move onto the next latest craze? Perhaps if they’d turned to more traditional currents they may have progressed. Trouble is…those currents often involve work…and discipline (dirty words in our latter Western cultures). Fact is that most traditions have room to grow and with introspection and dialectic, one develops one’s own path.

However, this also depends on how actively one wants to use powers that are available in the spiritual universe. If you want to get things done you need to grow as well as harness powers/energies/whatever you call them. Nothing in the new age seems to help people harness those powers safely.

So I’m not so sure that brusque dismissal of the past will lead to a better future – in spirituality as in everything else. Lilith can be used in her darker aspect (not of interest to me but to access the remoter dark tunnels, if that is one's current, She does "impede" the way through. However, the Pomba Gira or Ezuli Dantor might be better, safer bets.)

(I don't visit Facebook. A bit like half-Life's Ravenholme to me! One doesn't visit it any more!)
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  #29  
Old 18-01-2018, 10:26 PM
Khalli Khalli is offline
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Wow! a lot of overthinking on this subject.

Just looking at the state of human relations and the results of them should be enough for people to explore other options. But, looks like I could have given humanity too much credit.

ps. love the half-life analogy!
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  #30  
Old 18-01-2018, 10:29 PM
Inika Inika is offline
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Wow! a lot of overthinking on this subject.

see how awesome Lilith is? lol
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