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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Non Duality

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  #21  
Old 10-01-2018, 09:23 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
I am wondering whom is to blame for a thought that is thought?

I think 'who' is correct pronoun in this case. Him/her=who. His/hers=whom (but that's just my virgo obsession with order coming out).

I guess blame would be self referential in this case, which means someone is there to fight the enemy, so ideally, the answer to your question would be no one.

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To have negative thought/s and to entertain negative mindsets could be seen as counterproductive or as an enemy, butt where does the thought come from?

I don't know. Do you?

(teehee, you said butt)

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They say one should keep their enemies close .. perhaps it's a pointer that reflects the real issue in such cases when there is the suggestion made that there is something other than self to blame ..

Quite the contrary, there is no blame in the sense that blame is another thought that is recognised and you leave no one at 'whom' it can be directed.

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I wonder if the Mcdonalds commercial is one's enemy

Well, there is no such thing as happy meal, so I guess the commercial is aimed to mislead.


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  #22  
Old 10-01-2018, 10:05 AM
God-Like God-Like is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
I think 'who' is correct pronoun in this case. Him/her=who. His/hers=whom (but that's just my virgo obsession with order coming out).

I guess blame would be self referential in this case, which means someone is there to fight the enemy, so ideally, the answer to your question would be no one.



I don't know. Do you?

(teehee, you said butt)



Quite the contrary, there is no blame in the sense that blame is another thought that is recognised and you leave no one at 'whom' it can be directed.



Well, there is no such thing as happy meal, so I guess the commercial is aimed to mislead.



Keeping inline with the O.P and the suggestion of whether or not the mind is the enemy already integrates that there is a self in reflection of the enemy .

For there to be the suggestion that there is no-one to blame would nullify the question .

There would be no enemy ..

Butt as stated for there to be an enemy or a friend must therefore put the blame or the association on either's doorstep ..

In regards to where the thoughts come from there always will be magnetically charged reflection of what you relate yourself to being .

The thought in the O.P was reflected and magnetically charged in relation to what the poster believes himself to be and what the mind is and what constitutes the enemy ..



x daz x
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  #23  
Old 10-01-2018, 10:39 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Originally Posted by God-Like
Keeping inline with the O.P and the suggestion of whether or not the mind is the enemy already integrates that there is a self in reflection of the enemy .

For there to be the suggestion that there is no-one to blame would nullify the question .

There would be no enemy ..

Oh there can be the enemy in the obscurity of delusions, agitations and such. It's just that the enemy is recognised, and nothing more.

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Butt as stated for there to be an enemy or a friend must therefore put the blame or the association on either's doorstep ..

In regards to where the thoughts come from there always will be magnetically charged reflection of what you relate yourself to being .

The thought in the O.P was reflected and magnetically charged in relation to what the poster believes himself to be and what the mind is and what constitutes the enemy ..



x daz x

I don't really make any assumptions regarding anyone. I think people can articulate themselves in their own way if they wish to do so.
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  #24  
Old 10-01-2018, 11:21 AM
God-Like God-Like is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
Oh there can be the enemy in the obscurity of delusions, agitations and such. It's just that the enemy is recognised, and nothing more.



I don't really make any assumptions regarding anyone. I think people can articulate themselves in their own way if they wish to do so.


Butt even so, within your understanding that the enemy resides within the obscurity of delusion there is a reflection had of self or what you are that is not residing nor reflecting within the delusion .

This is where and why and how thoughts become you . They come about through your own self reflection ...

If there is no-one present per se and enemies are delusional then what does that say about what you are that can discern delusional reflections from something other than that?

Your next thought will comprise all of what I mentioned above .

You don't need to make assumptions about anyone to know how thoughts come about ...



x daz x
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  #25  
Old 10-01-2018, 11:45 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Originally Posted by God-Like
Butt even so, within your understanding that the enemy resides within the obscurity of delusion there is a reflection had of self or what you are that is not residing nor reflecting within the delusion .

Yes there is a delusion of self involved in the agitations we call personal reactions, and we can notice these reactivities (which we call 'the enemy') and see there is no self inherent to them. In that awareness, the watcher is unaffected by such turmoils in the mind, and hence such turmoils cease.

Upon the surface level ceasing and becoming quiet, deeper aspects start to arise, and these are noticed in the same objective sense, and through such a process we arrive at the roots and resolve life long issues, but during that process we are challenged as the violence of such arising storms can exceed our limited ability for mindful equanimity, so there is a strengthening aspect which enables us endure with poise and balance yet greater extremes of the experience.

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This is where and why and how thoughts become you . They come about through your own self reflection ...

If there is no-one present per se and enemies are delusional then what does that say about what you are that can discern delusional reflections from something other than that?

There is a difference between illusion and delusion, so that which arises is illusory in nature, but it is the reality of the lived experience. The awareness of it as arising in the absence of having substance, or in other words, self, is freedom from delusion, or noticing its illusory quality. However, it must arise, so attempts to stop it, resist it, avoid it are like being present for this enemy to fight.

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Your next thought will comprise all of what I mentioned above .

I don't see that prediction actualising at all.
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  #26  
Old 10-01-2018, 12:06 PM
God-Like God-Like is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
Yes there is a delusion of self involved in the agitations we call personal reactions, and we can notice these reactivities (which we call 'the enemy') and see there is no self inherent to them. In that awareness, the watcher is unaffected by such turmoils in the mind, and hence such turmoils cease.

Upon the surface level ceasing and becoming quiet, deeper aspects start to arise, and these are noticed in the same objective sense, and through such a process we arrive at the roots and resolve life long issues, but during that process we are challenged as the violence of such arising storms can exceed our limited ability for mindful equanimity, so there is a strengthening aspect which enables us endure with poise and balance yet greater extremes of the experience.



There is a difference between illusion and delusion, so that which arises is illusory in nature, but it is the reality of the lived experience. The awareness of it as arising in the absence of having substance, or in other words, self, is freedom from delusion, or noticing its illusory quality. However, it must arise, so attempts to stop it, resist it, avoid it are like being present for this enemy to fight.



I don't see that prediction actualising at all.

You say we can notice these reactivities .. whom or what is noticing? Something that can obviously notice something and that can distinguish what is illusional and what is delusional .

We can call what we are a delusional self in such instances but there is still a self reflection had of what you are in order to make such statements .

It's really this point of self discernment / examination / noticing that makes sense of the reality that presents itself that interests me .

We can call what that is consciousness or something along similar lines, it matters not but the point of self reflection contains a profile of sorts and such a profile is reflecting upon our understandings of what everything is, means, or stands for .

Getting back to the original O.P there really would be no question of other's or what enemies constitute for there would be no preferences, for there would be no other's or enemies that one would notice .

My thoughts upon your thoughts that come about through self reflection is actual ..

Explain to me your process of evaluation regarding what you understand my post containing and what you have evaluated and what you have said in reply without a process that involves a reflection of what you believe yourself to be .

If you believe no-one is present for example then you have evaluated that by what other means?


x daz x
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  #27  
Old 10-01-2018, 12:31 PM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
You say we can notice these reactivities .. whom or what is noticing?

I don't know.

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Something that can obviously notice something and that can distinguish what is illusional and what is delusional .

OK.

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We can call what we are a delusional self in such instances but there is still a self reflection had of what you are in order to make such statements .

Am imagining of an image of self is still noticeable as a thought.

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It's really this point of self discernment / examination / noticing that makes sense of the reality that presents itself that interests me .

Yes it is very interesting to me as well.

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We can call what that is consciousness or something along similar lines, it matters not but the point of self reflection contains a profile of sorts and such a profile is reflecting upon our understandings of what everything is, means, or stands for .

Although we don't need to figure it all out and we can just be aware of it and see its nature... but there are extremes and limitations as I mentioned before.

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Getting back to the original O.P there really would be no question of other's or what enemies constitute for there would be no preferences, for there would be no other's or enemies that one would notice .

Well, if there are things that disrupt ones peace of mind, then we can't say there are no enemies, keeping in mind we just call these 'enemies' as a figurative reference.

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My thoughts upon your thoughts that come about through self reflection is actual ..

Explain to me your process of evaluation regarding what you understand my post containing and what you have evaluated and what you have said in reply without a process that involves a reflection of what you believe yourself to be .

I know what I am as presence beyond what appears, arises and passes away. I have self-beliefs as well, though I don't take these to be true. I guess this is the 'reflection'?

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If you believe no-one is present for example then you have evaluated that by what other means?

Well, there is obviously presence in that my presence is the same as yours - not two things the same, but the very same.
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  #28  
Old 10-01-2018, 12:37 PM
SlayerOfLight SlayerOfLight is offline
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My mind is both my friend and enemy. Equilibrium...
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  #29  
Old 10-01-2018, 02:39 PM
God-Like God-Like is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
I don't know.


You don't know based upon memory loss? Or because what you are is fundamentally indescribable? Or perhaps you don't know why you don't know? Or something else?




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Originally Posted by Gem
Am imagining of an image of self is still noticeable as a thought.

You notice an image in reflection of what you believe you are / think you are .

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Originally Posted by Gem
Although we don't need to figure it all out and we can just be aware of it and see its nature... but there are extremes and limitations as I mentioned before.

I agree we don't need to computerise it all out loud so to speak although somewhere down the line we do recognise / notice things because we have already worked it out what we believe we are in relation to everything else .


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
Well, if there are things that disrupt ones peace of mind, then we can't say there are no enemies, keeping in mind we just call these 'enemies' as a figurative reference.

Certain things that disrupt my peace perhaps wouldn't disrupt others so what constitutes a disruption again, boils down to how one perceives themselves in reflection of the noise .

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Originally Posted by Gem
I know what I am as presence beyond what appears, arises and passes away. I have self-beliefs as well, though I don't take these to be true. I guess this is the 'reflection'?

So you know you are presence beyond what appears so perhaps when you said you didn't know whom notices reactivities then this presence could be what you are as a reflection of self . Or self is a reflection of this presence? Same thing really . So this presence can think and feel and yet the personality / character traits are associated with no-one?



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  #30  
Old 10-01-2018, 07:16 PM
iamthat iamthat is offline
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Quote:
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What is the "we" you refer to that observes thoughts that is suggested is not the mind? The mind is capable of observing itself and what it thinks.

The incessant internal mental chatter may simply be the mind working on discomfort in the organism like a fast computer so is beneficial to the organism.

Ironically some of that chatter may be because the mind has come to believe that it itself is the problem it has to solve by eliminating itself, causing a state of conflict for the mind. A very difficult dilemma for the mind to solve which is why I suggest it solves it very creatively and cleverly, by pretending to be eliminated as the only sensible solution so it can hide but continue to run the show essential for the organisms survival.

Ah, such a complicated approach to something which is so simple.

Is the mind really capable of observing itself? How do we experience the mind? Simply one thought at a time, arising out of nothing and dissolving back into nothing. This nothing is simply the awareness of Being, and it is this awareness which observes thoughts coming and going.

So let go of thoughts and rest in the empty space. The organism will continue to survive without the need for any intervention from the mind. Everything continues doing whatever it does, but we do nothing.

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