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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Non Duality

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  #1  
Old 03-01-2018, 04:09 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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In depth disscussion on Nisargadatta's 'I am That'

Hello,

Here is a PDF of Nisargadatta's 'I am That'

http://www.freespiritualebooks.com/u.../i-am-that.pdf

I think this statement sums up Nasargadatta's approach:
How do you find a thing you have mislaid or forgotten? You keep it in your mind until you recall it. The sense of being, of 'I am' is the first to emerge. Ask yourself whence it comes, or just watch it quietly. When the mind stays in the 'I am' without moving, you enter a state which cannot be verbalised but can be experienced. All you need to do is try and try again. After all the sense I am is always with you, only you have attached all kinds of things to it -- body, feelings, thoughts, ideas, possessions etc. All these self-identifications are misleading. Because of them you take yourself to be what you are not

(you can do a word search to find it in the pdf text - the pdf has no page numbers I can reference)

I hope we can discuss the meanings presented in the book rationally and become the wiser so doing.

Cheers, and I look forward to talking with you.
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Old 04-01-2018, 10:47 AM
naturesflow naturesflow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
Hello,

Here is a PDF of Nisargadatta's 'I am That'

http://www.freespiritualebooks.com/u.../i-am-that.pdf

I think this statement sums up Nasargadatta's approach:
How do you find a thing you have mislaid or forgotten? You keep it in your mind until you recall it. The sense of being, of 'I am' is the first to emerge. Ask yourself whence it comes, or just watch it quietly. When the mind stays in the 'I am' without moving, you enter a state which cannot be verbalised but can be experienced. All you need to do is try and try again. After all the sense ‘I am’ is always with you, only you have attached all kinds of things to it -- body, feelings, thoughts, ideas, possessions etc. All these self-identifications are misleading. Because of them you take yourself to be what you are not

(you can do a word search to find it in the pdf text - the pdf has no page numbers I can reference)

I hope we can discuss the meanings presented in the book rationally and become the wiser so doing.

Cheers, and I look forward to talking with you.

It was lengthy, but I did read through it, not fully, but lots of it.

I am curious as to when the mind stays in the intent of the I am, is it actually holding those words in the mind as a focus Gem? As an example if one were meditating, is it the words as the intent?

In the past I have done positive affirmations of the I Am, but with affirming additions after it. This was to change my mindset from my own lack, or inability to trust in the process, or just a self worth thing. They were varied. I did these over two years and they shifted me to let go of the old binds and connect to a new mindset as the affirming words.

I am curious as to what the experience reveals with this intent on the I Am. Have you experienced this yourself?
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  #3  
Old 04-01-2018, 11:40 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naturesflow
It was lengthy, but I did read through it, not fully, but lots of it.

I am curious as to when the mind stays in the intent of the I am, is it actually holding those words in the mind as a focus Gem? As an example if one were meditating, is it the words as the intent?

I don't think so, more like placing the attention on where the self is. With the words 'who am I?', one has to also look to find out.

Quote:
In the past I have done positive affirmations of the I Am, but with affirming additions after it. This was to change my mindset from my own lack, or inability to trust in the process, or just a self worth thing. They were varied. I did these over two years and they shifted me to let go of the old binds and connect to a new mindset as the affirming words.

Wow I didn't actually expect anyone would read it. I've read it, but more like bit by bit since I downloaded it a few years back. I like this book a lot.

Really? Affirmation? My first touch on spirituality apart for Christian religion was healing centre that was based on Louise Hay's affirmations - I think her book was called 'You Can Heal Your Life', but affirmations didn't seem to do anything for me.

Quote:
I am curious as to what the experience reveals with this intent on the I Am. Have you experienced this yourself?

Not really. I have read and listened to lots of ND people from Ramana to Gangaji to Spira, and I guess it's a core practice that this is my presence, but I'm personally working the other way, bringing pure awareness through mind/body.
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Old 05-01-2018, 09:33 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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I was just perusing a little of this book (linked in OP), and although it was not mentioned in the book directly (at least no so far as I just read), I inferred how the practice isn't a different activity to the goal.

These are the lines I upon which I made inference (please word search the book for wider context).

"the goal and the way must not be on different levels; life and light must not quarrel; behaviour must not betray belief. Call it honesty, integrity, wholeness; you must not go back, undo, uproot, abandon the conquered ground. Tenacity of purpose and honesty in pursuit will bring you to your goal."

"The goal and the way must not be on different levels."

In this meaning I make, the way to the goal is to have the goal in sight. Like seeing the finish line although the race is as yet incomplete, but what is a runner to do? The runner is already running.

I just depends if the runner is earnest, or if they dawdle along. If they have the tenacity to persist until the end, or not.

In calling it 'honesty' and 'integrity' Nis is speaking my language. His last sentence brings it all together.

It reminds my of my favorite saying when it comes to this ultimate self-knowing stuff - "You have to give all you got, because it takes all you have".


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Old 05-01-2018, 01:46 PM
jonesboy jonesboy is offline
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I thought I would share some thoughts from a friend of mine on the subject.

Quote:
I thought I'd write a bit about Non-duality, based on statements like -- Non-duality claims there is only One and not two, and that it is possible to know there is underlying non-separateness without being a single "thing". That there are still individuals but they are not separate.



Somehow the notion that Non-duality implies "a One Thing", has taken hold.



What does Non-duality really mean? Some statements towards that end --


• The Non-dual cannot be described in words
• The mind cannot reach Non-duality
• Non-dual means no duality - in other words, no subject-object distinction



Subject-object duality is our primary day to day experience. Everything we experience is predicated on the subject-object duality. I, the subject, experience objects that are separate from me. In experiencing these objects, I come to know them. Our reality is what we know, and we know objects.



Even my body is an object to me, the "I". My mind, is an object to me, the "I". Mind I define as a stream of objects rising and falling in consciousness.



That begs the question -- who is this "I"?



An exercise that I found very useful, (I borrowed from Papaji, the Advaita master from India (Ramana Maharshi's student)) is to have someone inquire thus -- "In a fraction of a second, tell me who you are".



The usual response is "I am XYZ". Then response becomes "that took more than a fraction of a second..it took maybe 1 or 2 seconds even to respond to". In a fraction of a second, tell me who you are. Depending on the individual, the eventually are stumped as they don't get an answer. They cannot articulate anything about their identity. So, then the follow-on question is - "What do you know about who you are in a fraction of a second?"



After some more attempts, it becomes clear "I know I am". In essence, this is who "I" is. Existence and awareness. We can't even say whether "I am aware because I exist...or I exist because I'm aware". They are one and the same.



So then, this begs the question - what about all these objects that we know? Do they exist separately from "I" (or the I AM)?



Isn't our experience predicated on our being and being aware? So how can the objects exist independent of the "I"? Counter-arguments ensue..."but they existed before...your parents saw you...your children will see after you". But what are your parents and your children? Are they too not objects to your "I"? We make assumptions about our model of reality on the basis of the experiences we have. Most are oblivious to the "being and being aware" or the "I AM". The reality is a construct of objects. We identify with these objects.



We might go from the "I am XYZ...of ABC nationality, Male or Female, etc etc" model to "I am not separate from others but there is no inherent "oneness"" model. Still, these are models based on subject-object duality. "I" the subject am still experiencing "objects". These objects are "things".



Non-duality, says there is no subject-object separation at all. There is no One, there is No Two. There are No "Things". "One" and "Two" are in the domain of things. When we operate from the perspective of "I" and "things", it is duality. Whether we see separateness or non-separateness. Whether we see unity or diversity. If there is an "I" and an "Other", it is duality.



Things appear and disappear. What is the only constant in this dualistic model? The "I". What are the characteristics of "I"? Presence, now! There is no past, there is no future. Only naked awareness, right here, right now. How can one then say, that the "I" in me, is separate and distinct from the "I" in you? Where is the possibility of "me and you" in "right here, right now"? All there is, is presence.



What happens when we stay abiding with "I"? Even the "I" disappears. When "I" and "things" both are gone, then there is non-duality.
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  #6  
Old 05-01-2018, 09:56 PM
naturesflow naturesflow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
I don't think so, more like placing the attention on where the self is. With the words 'who am I?', one has to also look to find out.
Ah thankyou, so its with the intent, one moves to stay present with whatever is.
Quote:


Wow I didn't actually expect anyone would read it. I've read it, but more like bit by bit since I downloaded it a few years back. I like this book a lot.

Well I thought you wanted people to read it and discuss. I moved through it fast but I got the gist of it and I like it. It speaks to that part of me aware, so it's not hard to flow with the context.
Quote:
Really? Affirmation? My first touch on spirituality apart for Christian religion was healing centre that was based on Louise Hay's affirmations - I think her book was called 'You Can Heal Your Life', but affirmations didn't seem to do anything for me.

Affirmations were more when I investigated my mind and beliefs, keeping me locked in to an "aspect" of my process. It was important learning for me over that two years to see how the body shifts more profoundly to clarity of being if the mind is changed from old patterns to new patterns that serve a greater shift within. I still had to do the work as it all arose. I did notice it was quite profound all the same. Bit like being in a sitting meditation, where you let it all unfold once you place your attention to something. It served a similar process to what your sharing here about where attention goes, what can be, in this way. I used Louise Hay's book to understand the mind body relationship more so, so it was a investigative path for a while in me. . (I walked many paths but I see it served me to gain a deeper understanding of many paths and where it all leads.. )



Quote:
Not really. I have read and listened to lots of ND people from Ramana to Gangaji to Spira, and I guess it's a core practice that this is my presence, but I'm personally working the other way, bringing pure awareness through mind/body.

This is where I have arrived recently, more consciously aware the potential in myself in this regard. It is getting into my awareness deeper how to let it all melt away rather than let my mind take over the game. I think this last shift helped me see how I really don't want to be in the entanglement of myself anymore, through the mind/body awareness. I got a taste of that pure awareness these past few months so I see how it is going to serve me ongoing from here on in as a practice this more clear/aware to do so :)
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Man has learned how to challenge both Nature and art to become the incitements to vice! His very cups he has delighted to engrave with libidinous subjects, and he takes pleasure in drinking from vessels of obscene form! Pliny the Elder
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Old 06-01-2018, 12:26 AM
FallingLeaves FallingLeaves is offline
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i read through part of it, enough to know the problem with even that is that sometimes I'm not allowed to follow such a path and have to do something else with my time. So it became boring and I quit reading.
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Old 06-01-2018, 01:00 AM
revolver revolver is offline
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Nisargadatta's is a truly Enlightened being.
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He is neither arrogant nor humble; he is simply himself."
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Old 06-01-2018, 01:31 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naturesflow
Ah thankyou, so its with the intent, one moves to stay present with whatever is.

Yes I think that's the gist of it in the general sense, but there is the specific aspect of staying with I AM, which I take to mean your constant presence.

Quote:
Well I thought you wanted people to read it and discuss.

Yes, that would be ideal, because it is quite an indepth talk from the advaita ND perspective.

Quote:
I moved through it fast but I got the gist of it and I like it. It speaks to that part of me aware, so it's not hard to flow with the context.

Quote:
Affirmations were more when I investigated my mind and beliefs, keeping me locked in to an "aspect" of my process.

Oh right, that sounds like a good idea. Can you give an example of such an affirmation?

Quote:
It was important learning for me over that two years to see how the body shifts more profoundly to clarity of being if the mind is changed from old patterns to new patterns that serve a greater shift within. I still had to do the work as it all arose. I did notice it was quite profound all the same. Bit like being in a sitting meditation, where you let it all unfold once you place your attention to something. It served a similar process to what your sharing here about where attention goes, what can be, in this way. I used Louise Hay's book to understand the mind body relationship more so, so it was a investigative path for a while in me. . (I walked many paths but I see it served me to gain a deeper understanding of many paths and where it all leads.. )

Quote:
This is where I have arrived recently, more consciously aware the potential in myself in this regard. It is getting into my awareness deeper how to let it all melt away rather than let my mind take over the game.

Yes, so its a process of dissolving in that pure conscious awareness.

Quote:
I think this last shift helped me see how I really don't want to be in the entanglement of myself anymore, through the mind/body awareness. I got a taste of that pure awareness these past few months so I see how it is going to serve me ongoing from here on in as a practice this more clear/aware to do so :)

Yes same here. I'm no longer the named thing 'gem' - still the same personality but more spontaneous in that I don't have to do what I do per-se, but I just know what I'm doing. How could I say? I am being knowing?

Things work out better not so much because I do it better, but because I'm more consciously aware of what arises to my mind, more intricately aware of what I'm doing. I lost a lot of attachment to all of that because I know the arisings of the mind aren't really me, and nothing in the experience can affect my true nature.
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Old 06-01-2018, 05:29 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is online now
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This 'self-introspection' thing doesn't seem to work with me (maybe because I'm so used to it).

So somebody asks Shivani: "Who are you?"
Shivani goes: "I am ME"
Somebody says: "Who is ME?"
Shivani says; "The ME is who I am"

Yeap, it can go round and around in circles like this forever. =)

I was watching a Mooji satsanga a few nights ago...actually, I ended up watching three of them.

Whenever anybody asked Mooji a question, he be like "who is observing that?" and if I was there, I'd be like "why, the 'Higher Mind' is observing that" and Mooji would go "what is observing your Higher Mind?" and yes, I would go "easy! another aspect of the Higher Mind".

Of course, I could also go the way of ego just as easy as the way of Consciousness.

Somebody. "who are you, Shivani?"
Shivani: "I am my ego"
Somebody: "what owns your ego to say 'I am my ego?'
Shivani: "why, another aspect of the ego owns itself, simple"

Somebody: "Okay, then...it seems I'm not getting anywhere...what is at your core, Shivani?"
Me: "love"
Somebody: "what is love?"
Me: "love is love"
Somebody: "what feels the love?"
Me: "it feels itself...by the way, who is asking me all these questions?"
Somebody: "Oneness is asking"
Me: "can't it ask me directly without you speaking it?"
Somebody: "I am not saying anything...Oneness speaks"
Me: "Does Oneness require a human intermediary to speak through when all is Oneness?"
Somebody: "there are no people here, there is only Oneness".
Me: "so, why do you ask me 'who are you, Shivani?' when you already know it?"
Somebody: "sheesh, you're impossible".
Me: "nope ONENESS is being a pain in the a$$, not me"
Somebody: (receives Nirvana on the spot).
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