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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > General Beliefs

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  #41  
Old 11-11-2017, 12:55 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonglow
The mind works through images in order for me, or anyone, to find some sot of correlation with whatever it may be. So, without an image of some kind, would any of this make any sense or even be noticed?

What is religion or religious? Is it within the symbols, icons, theology, ect.? Or is it more of a faith/belief based created practice? Perhaps a combination?
What I am getting at is there is not a whole lot of difference between religion and spirituality, they both seem to run in similar fashion.

I think spiritual life is essentially not an identity in that it pertains to universal truths such as awareness, that pertain to all people regardless of their religion.

Quote:
Truth seems something one may find with in oneself. For me, also what may change with in my mind according to what may be learned and understood at present. Yes, the Universe will do what it will regardless of what I may think or even "know".

There are so many practices out there, that I feel can not assume for all as to what may be true or not. Does a ritual really bring spirits/ancestors to aid in a hunt?(for example)

It is probably does.

Quote:
Rituals can bring focus to an intended goal. Whether it be to give thanks or to bring focus to the mind. Which yes can relate that these can be religious in their own way. So without them what do you have?

I have rituals to elicit certain psychological states, and assist in consistency, but just for mundane activity such as lifting weights, and I don't give them any importance.

Quote:
Will just add, I do see the communal benefits that can be form with some religious gatherings and worship.

Sure, there is a lot of research that shows tremendous social benefits, but it does tend to be quite exclusive on the condition of conformed belief. I used to volunteer at a homeless kitchen run by a church, and the people there just assumed I was a Christian, so I didn't say otherwise nor talk about spiritual things. When I meditated in ashrams I became deeply involved with the sangha, but I had my own ways, which I didn't talk about. This meant I wasn't actually a part of the respective groups simply because I didn't revere their iconic figures or ascribe to their teachings in any blind faith. At the church, the pastor asked me what denomination I belong to, and I said I was baptised Anglican, but I'm not a practicing Christian (which is true), and he said, it's OK because I am baptised I am accepted into the kingdom of Christ.

In my kingdom, it's different because it's more like, everyone breathes, everyone thinks, everyone is aware, and we all have our own outlandish beliefs.
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  #42  
Old 11-11-2017, 02:52 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Namaste.

Religion and spirituality are all about perceived concepts, on an individual and/or collective level.

I could say something which relates to myself, that is true for me alone and have others disagree with me because it is not true for them, but they cannot prove their way of thinking any more than I can prove mine...and so all we can say is 'God bless you and have a nice life'.

Spirituality is an individual concept/idea, that we are each working towards our own personal growth and are at different stages of it, but are not bound by any teachings, dogma or anybody else...however, that isn't entirely true either, or else certain 'spiritual authors' and 'gurus' wouldn't be as popular as they are...for mankind always seeks justification, acceptance, camaraderie, tolerance, importance and self-image...and so the more people who agree with their beliefs and opinions, the more people who follow their way, the better because they are 'not alone' they have others to 'talk to' now and to bounce ideas and philosophies off each other...and maybe a hundred people will get involved in a 'spiritual movement' and publish their collective works and findings...and thus a religion is being born.

However, they will be the very first to say "oh no...we are not religious because religion does 'bad things' in the name of it and we do not"...giving examples like ISIS or the Spanish Inquisition...totally forgetting that it's not the religion which causes it, but mentally unstable adherents of it (fanatics) and totally forgetting that other religions like Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism etc exist apart from the Abrahamic ones which their minds will automatically associate with 'religion'.

I could say that I am Hindu...I could say that I am spiritual and there would be thousands who would disagree with me on either front, or I could say that I am 'That' or I am 'Brahman' and have everybody agree, even if they haven't realised this for themselves and don't know about it anyway.
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  #43  
Old 11-11-2017, 04:21 AM
Kioma Kioma is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shivani Devi
Namaste.

Religion and spirituality are all about perceived concepts, on an individual and/or collective level.

I could say something which relates to myself, that is true for me alone and have others disagree with me because it is not true for them, but they cannot prove their way of thinking any more than I can prove mine...and so all we can say is 'God bless you and have a nice life'.

Spirituality is an individual concept/idea, that we are each working towards our own personal growth and are at different stages of it, but are not bound by any teachings, dogma or anybody else...however, that isn't entirely true either, or else certain 'spiritual authors' and 'gurus' wouldn't be as popular as they are...for mankind always seeks justification, acceptance, camaraderie, tolerance, importance and self-image...and so the more people who agree with their beliefs and opinions, the more people who follow their way, the better because they are 'not alone' they have others to 'talk to' now and to bounce ideas and philosophies off each other...and maybe a hundred people will get involved in a 'spiritual movement' and publish their collective works and findings...and thus a religion is being born.

However, they will be the very first to say "oh no...we are not religious because religion does 'bad things' in the name of it and we do not"...giving examples like ISIS or the Spanish Inquisition...totally forgetting that it's not the religion which causes it, but mentally unstable adherents of it (fanatics) and totally forgetting that other religions like Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism etc exist apart from the Abrahamic ones which their minds will automatically associate with 'religion'.

I could say that I am Hindu...I could say that I am spiritual and there would be thousands who would disagree with me on either front, or I could say that I am 'That' or I am 'Brahman' and have everybody agree, even if they haven't realised this for themselves and don't know about it anyway.
Reminds me of something I found in the stories forum:

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...ad.php?t=24049

.
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  #44  
Old 11-11-2017, 04:37 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kioma
Reminds me of something I found in the stories forum:

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...ad.php?t=24049

.
That is a very nice story and thanks for sharing it (or the location thereof anyway).

If only people could just nod, smile and return to their 'caves' to meditate...but there's a difference between external/environmental events (or the perception of them) which leads to a belief or an opinion which they will die to defend, and those perceptions of the same stimuli which will result in the direct realisation and experience of their own inherent divinity, totally irrespective of what is occurring externally...and this is why, all of the enlightened masters and teachers have described the world, described all our experiences except for the ultimate, conclusive one as being Maya (illusion) or Mithya (false perception):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant

Quote:
It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind.

And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right
And all were in the wrong!

O how they cling and wrangle, some who claim
For preacher and monk the honored name!
For, quarreling, each to his view they cling.
Such folk see only one side of a thing.

So oft in theologic wars,
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!
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  #45  
Old 11-11-2017, 05:59 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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I guess my whole issue being that often, communication is impossible and I don't know how to rectify it, because no matter which avenue I take, it seems to be detrimental to my 'spirituality'.

For example, I may express a thought, belief or a feeling out of some human need to do so, only to have another say "you're totally wrong about that" or "you're stupid if you believe that" or "that's not how it really is, you're delusional".

Now, there are a few ways I could go about this...I could defend my view/opinion as it relates to me, only to be 'stubborn', 'ignorant', 'closed-minded' or 'intolerant'.

I could ask them "what makes you say that?" or "could you please explain yourself?" only to get a reply like "if you can't see why you're totally wrong, then I cannot help you" or "I don't need to explain myself to you" or else just re-iterate their position without any further elaboration.

I could always just laugh and ignore them/walk away, but then I am back to being 'ignorant' and 'closed-minded' again and 'not willing to listen'.

There is a reason why ancient tribes had a 'talking stick'...but most people consider that idea totally ridiculous...I sarcastically wonder why...lol

...and so, no matter which way I go, communication is impossible because I am fully aware that I am comfortable with my own thoughts and views, and if I listened to everybody and took everybody's opinions and beliefs on-board as my own, the total contradiction between all of them would drive me totally insane, so I have to have boundaries...and unfortunately, many people don't know the difference between a 'boundary' and a 'closed mind'.

So, the only other option is silence...but then again, if I am going to start being silent, I won't be able to stop being silent because I haven't yet learned when to speak and when to shut up, so I would shut up all the time and just communicate by neanderthal grunts and monkey hand-gestures...and others would say "wow, that's great...I totally managed to shut that idiot up for good...look how amazing I am".

...and so, I stay in my 'cave' and don't venture out of it and have over half of SF on my 'ignore list' because I just cannot deal.
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  #46  
Old 11-11-2017, 03:02 PM
Kioma Kioma is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 426
 
For myself, I have simply come to accept that I am just like everyone else.

I have my unique view -just like everyone else. I feel my view is the correct view - just like everyone else. I like to think that I see beyond my own view, but no matter how I look at it, it's my view, and no others'. I want everyone to understand my view, and stop telling me anything negative or contradictory to or about my view - just like everyone else.

People can be very devious and relentless in trying to get me to adhere to their view, in unending ways, both overt and underhanded, and I am no different. I sometimes wonder if someone does succeed in invalidating my view, will I cease to exist?

I know Maya does not actually exist - it is illusion - but I have come to realize I am completely powerless to avoid it, because it is my view, and who are we without our views?

And so, when we fight and grasp at establishing our views, I have to remember that I am just like the person fighting and grasping in front of me, and how easy the imposition becomes the point of the communication, leading me to otherwise feel lost and hopeless.

Remembering that, I also go back to my cave.

.
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  #47  
Old 11-11-2017, 03:08 PM
Moonglow Moonglow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shivani Devi
Namaste.

Religion and spirituality are all about perceived concepts, on an individual and/or collective level.

I could say something which relates to myself, that is true for me alone and have others disagree with me because it is not true for them, but they cannot prove their way of thinking any more than I can prove mine...and so all we can say is 'God bless you and have a nice life'.

Spirituality is an individual concept/idea, that we are each working towards our own personal growth and are at different stages of it, but are not bound by any teachings, dogma or anybody else...however, that isn't entirely true either, or else certain 'spiritual authors' and 'gurus' wouldn't be as popular as they are...for mankind always seeks justification, acceptance, camaraderie, tolerance, importance and self-image...and so the more people who agree with their beliefs and opinions, the more people who follow their way, the better because they are 'not alone' they have others to 'talk to' now and to bounce ideas and philosophies off each other...and maybe a hundred people will get involved in a 'spiritual movement' and publish their collective works and findings...and thus a religion is being born.

However, they will be the very first to say "oh no...we are not religious because religion does 'bad things' in the name of it and we do not"...giving examples like ISIS or the Spanish Inquisition...totally forgetting that it's not the religion which causes it, but mentally unstable adherents of it (fanatics) and totally forgetting that other religions like Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism etc exist apart from the Abrahamic ones which their minds will automatically associate with 'religion'.

I could say that I am Hindu...I could say that I am spiritual and there would be thousands who would disagree with me on either front, or I could say that I am 'That' or I am 'Brahman' and have everybody agree, even if they haven't realised this for themselves and don't know about it anyway.

Namaste Shivani Devi,

You bring up some good points.

I feel humans on some level are social beings. It feels good to be able to express oneself and find others who understand. Why some religious gatherings are so popular, perhaps. A safe place to gather and worship, for some, IMO. Atleast in my view, suppose to be.

What may raise questions in my mind is whether what is being taught, preached, written, ect. is being done to help guide or to "self" promote.

I see spiritual teaching and practice as a form of religion. One may have realizations and awareness of things, and may wish to share. When one is sharing such in a spiritual way, one in a way is being religious.

Religions in some ways tend to get clumped into one basket, but there are so many different practices, beliefs, teachings, organizations, and such, so feel it is presumptuous to generalize all as the same. This is not directed towards you, by the way, just an opinion.

I can agree it is when it gets fanatical that conflicts arise and oppressive actions take place.

One could take on a title in order to define in what manner one believes or practices. One could hold no title and still have a ritual and/or practice he/she does. One could not give a toss about any of this and be kind and open to others.

We do come in all shapes, sizes, and experiences. Makes life interesting for me.

Some things can understand, some things I get lost with. My mind has to make some sort connection to it and have it make sense. It has to resonate with me on some level. If not, then tend to put it aside. Some things have taken time to understand, other things just don't get.

Brings to mind, some things are meant for me, and some are for others. To respect this and not always expect that another is going to agree, like, or even be interested.

Well those are some thoughts I have at present

Thank you for your thoughts.
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  #48  
Old 11-11-2017, 03:12 PM
Moonglow Moonglow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
I think spiritual life is essentially not an identity in that it pertains to universal truths such as awareness, that pertain to all people regardless of their religion.


It is probably does.


I have rituals to elicit certain psychological states, and assist in consistency, but just for mundane activity such as lifting weights, and I don't give them any importance.


Sure, there is a lot of research that shows tremendous social benefits, but it does tend to be quite exclusive on the condition of conformed belief. I used to volunteer at a homeless kitchen run by a church, and the people there just assumed I was a Christian, so I didn't say otherwise nor talk about spiritual things. When I meditated in ashrams I became deeply involved with the sangha, but I had my own ways, which I didn't talk about. This meant I wasn't actually a part of the respective groups simply because I didn't revere their iconic figures or ascribe to their teachings in any blind faith. At the church, the pastor asked me what denomination I belong to, and I said I was baptised Anglican, but I'm not a practicing Christian (which is true), and he said, it's OK because I am baptised I am accepted into the kingdom of Christ.

In my kingdom, it's different because it's more like, everyone breathes, everyone thinks, everyone is aware, and we all have our own outlandish beliefs.


Hi Gem,

Can agree to each their own.

It what keeps life interesting for me. How boring it would be if we all thought the same.

I think if more were willing to agree to disagree and get on with it, perhaps all the dust kicked up would settle down a bit.
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  #49  
Old 11-11-2017, 03:27 PM
Lorelyen Lorelyen is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 6,010
 
You make some excellent points, if I may say so.

The main problems seem twofold: there are almost no facts in spirituality so correspondingly almost everything said is an opinion.
And: words are fairly useless to describe experiences unless one can count on what they mean being commonly recognised. At times it can be difficult.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shivani Devi
I guess my whole issue being that often, communication is impossible and I don't know how to rectify it, because no matter which avenue I take, it seems to be detrimental to my 'spirituality'.

For example, I may express a thought, belief or a feeling out of some human need to do so, only to have another say "you're totally wrong about that" or "you're stupid if you believe that" or "that's not how it really is, you're delusional".

Now, there are a few ways I could go about this...I could defend my view/opinion as it relates to me, only to be 'stubborn', 'ignorant', 'closed-minded' or 'intolerant'.
Understand in that it would affect me similarly once though now I'm more used to it and happy for people to assert if they want to when I know I'm facing opinion. Call me stupid if they might so........

Quote:
I could ask them "what makes you say that?" or "could you please explain yourself?" only to get a reply like "if you can't see why you're totally wrong, then I cannot help you" or "I don't need to explain myself to you" or else just re-iterate their position without any further elaboration.

Well, huh, if they suggest I can't see where I'm wrong but can do nothing to help remedy it then I switch off, wondering if they know what they're talking about. Otherwise, I'll "listen", always wondering what's new to take in or from a technical viewpoint what can be learned.

Quote:
I could always just laugh and ignore them/walk away, but then I am back to being 'ignorant' and 'closed-minded' again and 'not willing to listen'.
Laugh away and ponder yourself on how close-minded you are. You probably aren't. But yes, one gets that kind of rebuff here so I notice.

Quote:
There is a reason why ancient tribes had a 'talking stick'...but most people consider that idea totally ridiculous...I sarcastically wonder why...lol
It's a shame the practice became extinct. I suppose here it's a bit replicated since replies are sequential. People can't all talk at once. I fend to read through a whole topic if coming in late. No use repeating what someone else might have said earlier.

Quote:
...and so, no matter which way I go, communication is impossible because I am fully aware that I am comfortable with my own thoughts and views, and if I listened to everybody and took everybody's opinions and beliefs on-board as my own, the total contradiction between all of them would drive me totally insane, so I have to have boundaries...and unfortunately, many people don't know the difference between a 'boundary' and a 'closed mind'.

So, the only other option is silence...but then again, if I am going to start being silent, I won't be able to stop being silent because I haven't yet learned when to speak and when to shut up, so I would shut up all the time and just communicate by neanderthal grunts and monkey hand-gestures...and others would say "wow, that's great...I totally managed to shut that idiot up for good...look how amazing I am".

...and so, I stay in my 'cave' and don't venture out of it and have over half of SF on my 'ignore list' because I just cannot deal.
Shame, that. There are those I ignore here but don't put them on the list in case they pop up in an interesting thread. Could be they have something relevant. There are pompous people, preachers, pragmatists, genuine ascetics, all sorts. I could well be on your ignore list; am probably on over half of members' ignore lists. I try to be sincere because this is a forum where that would seem appropriate, just have to watch my optimism as it can turn into humour that isn't often appreciated. Sincerity isn't always appreciated.

I've learned a lot here; been forced to look at my background, at occasional capriciousness and flippancy and made to wonder. I've learned how selfish emotions can be.
On the other hand, how precious people are.
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  #50  
Old 11-11-2017, 03:39 PM
Moonglow Moonglow is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kioma
For myself, I have simply come to accept that I am just like everyone else.

I have my unique view -just like everyone else. I feel my view is the correct view - just like everyone else. I like to think that I see beyond my own view, but no matter how I look at it, it's my view, and no others'. I want everyone to understand my view, and stop telling me anything negative or contradictory to or about my view - just like everyone else.

People are very devious and relentless in trying to get me to adhere to their view, in unending ways, both overt and underhanded, and I am no different. I sometimes wonder if someone does succeed in invalidating my view, will I cease to exist?

I know Maya does not actually exist - it is illusion - but I have come to realize I am completely powerless to avoid it, because it is my view, and who are we without our views?

And so, when we fight and grasp at establishing our views, I have to remember that I am just like the person fighting and grasping in front of me, and how easy the imposition becomes the point of the communication, leading me to otherwise feel lost and hopeless.

Remembering that, I also go back to my cave.

.

Hi Kioma,

There are times when I feel it just isn't worth the effort. If one is rigid in his/her ways, I can not change that and perhaps it is not my place to do so. For it is up to the one being such.

I too have had times in my life I clung onto a belief and dug my feet into the ground. Then realized it was that I was defending my parents and what I was told more so then what I actually believed deep down. So worked through letting this go. Still things will come up, but now can recognize the source of them better and go on from there.

It is not so much about being right, as it is to have an outlet to express things.
If just by myself, then what am I learning? What expands the view? What use is it? These are the pondering that arise in my mind.

For me it has and continues to be to take responsibility for my actions and words. To do my best to keep an open mind. To not take Everything as being personal.

Sometimes it just a different view point, a different opinion a different understanding. Which creates in itself the rainbow reflected of ourselves, me included.

Thank you
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