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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > General Beliefs

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  #11  
Old 17-10-2017, 11:26 AM
Astro Astro is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthat
The idea that karma does not exist is simply another belief system.

Peace.

A belief yes, a belief system no! It's an observation.
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  #12  
Old 17-10-2017, 12:48 PM
Gem Gem is offline
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Originally Posted by Astro
Well I was clearly referring to the religious origins of Karma, which appear to be a contrast to the explanation you have here. This is more like cause & effect, not incarnation as a series of trials.

I just learned it in Buddhist study, which includes the medation along with the discourse teachings, but people usually want to believe there are 'reasons for everything' so they tend toward a religious explanation which is 'true' rather than an explanation that refers to observable things. The Op want to know how it works, so I gave it my best shot. No one will ever know what's going on exactly, because it is fundamentally mysterious and can never be reduced to some sort of acquired knowledge, but the nature of intent and/or attitude, and the sorts of outcomes they bring about, are quite obviously noticeable in principle. The post that explained that it's best to be morally pure relates directly to this, as ethics isn't in what people do so much as it is in the motivation for doing it.
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  #13  
Old 17-10-2017, 03:21 PM
Astro Astro is offline
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Originally Posted by Gem
I just learned it in Buddhist study, which includes the medation along with the discourse teachings, but people usually want to believe there are 'reasons for everything' so they tend toward a religious explanation which is 'true' rather than an explanation that refers to observable things. The Op want to know how it works, so I gave it my best shot. No one will ever know what's going on exactly, because it is fundamentally mysterious and can never be reduced to some sort of acquired knowledge, but the nature of intent and/or attitude, and the sorts of outcomes they bring about, are quite obviously noticeable in principle. The post that explained that it's best to be morally pure relates directly to this, as ethics isn't in what people do so much as it is in the motivation for doing it.

The use of the word Karma appears to me to be used here out of context. It belongs to religion, what you are talking about is psychological.
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  #14  
Old 17-10-2017, 07:19 PM
lemex lemex is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astro
Well I was clearly referring to the religious origins of Karma, which appear to be a contrast to the explanation you have here. This is more like cause & effect, not incarnation as a series of trials.


Astro, yes and this matches kamra. Think in terms of language. I myself don't use old or outdated language, we move away such word and usage, don't we. Did our ancestors have such words as you have (know) today. The knowledge is the same. If you wish to use these words then do it. We try to explain new idea with old words and once you use new words, words they did not know, you feel it changes? Absolutely cause and effect through incarnation. Do you think a person can get it right in only one try? Also keep in mind the idea comes from practice and experience where a person saw something, a previous cycle so there it would be manifested whereas if it wasn't encouraged and taught it wouldn't happen. imo, don't think new words mean new things but think in terms of the audience. It is easier to understand common usage and one should try to mix the words in ways it can be understood imo.
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  #15  
Old 17-10-2017, 11:37 PM
Gem Gem is offline
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Originally Posted by Astro
The use of the word Karma appears to me to be used here out of context. It belongs to religion, what you are talking about is psychological.

I'm basically paraphrasing the Buddhist philosophy on Kamma. I summed it up as best I could, as this was the request of the OP.
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  #16  
Old 18-10-2017, 01:28 AM
shivatar shivatar is offline
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My understanding that karma is more of a realization that everything is connected and in perfect balance.

Karma is a little bit like God, it's too mysterious and profound to be truly understood. It's a part of God, no doubt, but for beings like us it is beyond us to try and quantify how it works. That is a part of human nature though, to try and understand things. It's OK to want to try and understand karma, but why do you want to understand it? so you can work the system? is it to relieve your anxiety and comfort you?

if you need to work the system you will only hurt yourself. Plus, if you believe what I've said, then you can easily recognize the folly and impossibility of attempting to understand karma enough to work the system.

if you only want relief, then you only need to find enough evidence to convince your self that karma is truly out there. You can begin to look for the signs right now, they will show up the more desperate you get. When you've had enough you can let go of the search. When bad things happen, you will still be tempted to doubt karma, but it won't be an impossible task to have faith in the universe. It's always hardest at first.
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  #17  
Old 18-10-2017, 01:42 AM
Kioma Kioma is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shivatar
My understanding that karma is more of a realization that everything is connected and in perfect balance.

Karma is a little bit like God, it's too mysterious and profound to be truly understood. It's a part of God, no doubt, but for beings like us it is beyond us to try and quantify how it works. That is a part of human nature though, to try and understand things. It's OK to want to try and understand karma, but why do you want to understand it? so you can work the system? is it to relieve your anxiety and comfort you?

if you need to work the system you will only hurt yourself. Plus, if you believe what I've said, then you can easily recognize the folly and impossibility of attempting to understand karma enough to work the system.

if you only want relief, then you only need to find enough evidence to convince your self that karma is truly out there. You can begin to look for the signs right now, they will show up the more desperate you get. When you've had enough you can let go of the search. When bad things happen, you will still be tempted to doubt karma, but it won't be an impossible task to have faith in the universe. It's always hardest at first.
Absolutely agree.

Karma is the connections everything shares. The specifics of those connections are most often beyond our ken though - how would we know what events in a someone else's previous life caused something to happen??? We can't all be an Edgar Casey.

I think the important take-away is to know life is complex, and there could be many forces we are unaware of, so we should keep our eyes open and know there is a lot we don't know - can't know.


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  #18  
Old 18-10-2017, 03:46 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shivatar
My understanding that karma is more of a realization that everything is connected and in perfect balance.

I don't know where you got that idea from.

Quote:
Karma is a little bit like God, it's too mysterious and profound to be truly understood. It's a part of God, no doubt, but for beings like us it is beyond us to try and quantify how it works.

That is a part of human nature though, to try and understand things. It's OK to want to try and understand karma, but why do you want to understand it? so you can work the system? is it to relieve your anxiety and comfort you?

If kamma is understood as volition then a person realises that they are responsible in the knowing that any intent on their part will produce results. This then inspires a different set of ethics based on how nature works, rather on arbitrary social norms where people are demoralised just for being different, even though they didn't actually do anything wrong or harmful.

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if you need to work the system you will only hurt yourself. Plus, if you believe what I've said, then you can easily recognize the folly and impossibility of attempting to understand karma enough to work the system.

If one tries to twist it to their advantage, what does that say about the nature of their volition?

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if you only want relief, then you only need to find enough evidence to convince your self that karma is truly out there.

But there is such a thing as intent that motivates people.

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You can begin to look for the signs right now, they will show up the more desperate you get. When you've had enough you can let go of the search. When bad things happen, you will still be tempted to doubt karma, but it won't be an impossible task to have faith in the universe. It's always hardest at first.

When bad things happen that makes kamma relevant in that the way one reacts to circumstances drives their intent.
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  #19  
Old 18-10-2017, 07:03 AM
Astro Astro is offline
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Originally Posted by Gem
I'm basically paraphrasing the Buddhist philosophy on Kamma. I summed it up as best I could, as this was the request of the OP.

And you appear to be missing the fundamentals!

Quote:
Originally Posted by shivatar
That is a part of human nature though, to try and understand things. It's OK to want to try and understand karma, but why do you want to understand it? so you can work the system? is it to relieve your anxiety and comfort you?

if you need to work the system you will only hurt yourself. Plus, if you believe what I've said, then you can easily recognize the folly and impossibility of attempting to understand karma enough to work the system.

Isn't this touching on the crux of the matter?

If one is self serving then they will have to face the consequences of their actions further down the road, in this life or the next. That this is the way for everyone & that life is suffering, with the aim of the game being to escape the cycle of reincarnation.

Isn't that the teaching of karma in both Buddhism & Hinduism?
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  #20  
Old 18-10-2017, 12:22 PM
Gem Gem is offline
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Originally Posted by Astro
And you appear to be missing the fundamentals!



Isn't this touching on the crux of the matter?

If one is self serving then they will have to face the consequences of their actions further down the road, in this life or the next. That this is the way for everyone & that life is suffering, with the aim of the game being to escape the cycle of reincarnation.

Isn't that the teaching of karma in both Buddhism & Hinduism?

Well, I could go into it more deeply, but no one has requested I do and I don't want to bore everyone; however, where you say I miss the fundamentals, I speak of the impetus which impels, and even compels the actions. Thus I'm speaking of something more fundamental than actions.

Also, in regards to reincarnation. What I'm talking about in that regard is the cycle of 'rebirth'. "Reincarnation" is the rebirth that happens on death of one body and the rebirth in the new. Kamma relates to rebirth in each moment, and reincarnation occurs in the continuum of rebirth. Thus I speak of that which is more fundamental than reincarnation.
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