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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Non Duality

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  #1  
Old 15-10-2017, 02:35 AM
sentient sentient is offline
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Awakenings within different cultural dreamings.

The general consensus seems to be, that once you shift and have the realization of “Oneness” - that is it - you are now awake and no longer dreaming.
But can: Everything is present, yet nobody is home … be a dreaming state as well?

I question this, because (getting into biographical stories here) “I have experienced” 3 (4) different awakenings from within different spiritual cultural perspectives/settings.

And yes, the core realization has been the same in each, but the curious thing is, that those moments of enter into the dimension beyond time and space came with perfectly timed (synchronistic), spontaneously manifested, highly specific cultural wrappings/phenomena unfolding “on cue” to witness.

A myth is just a myth and a pointer story until you wake up within one (or go lucid in your dream) and then the elements/symbols and the power of that myth become direct inner knowing as they spontaneously manifest and unfold.

I recently read:
Quote:
In functional terms you enter into an awareness of non-duality when your brain/mind enters a higher dimensional trance state of consciousness.

So is non-duality a trance i.e. a dream state of consciousness?
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  #2  
Old 15-10-2017, 03:59 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sentient
The general consensus seems to be, that once you shift and have the realization of “Oneness” - that is it - you are now awake and no longer dreaming.
But can: Everything is present, yet nobody is home … be a dreaming state as well?

I question this, because (getting into biographical stories here) “I have experienced” 3 (4) different awakenings from within different spiritual cultural perspectives/settings.

And yes, the core realization has been the same in each, but the curious thing is, that those moments of enter into the dimension beyond time and space came with perfectly timed (synchronistic), spontaneously manifested, highly specific cultural wrappings/phenomena unfolding “on cue” to witness.

A myth is just a myth and a pointer story until you wake up within one (or go lucid in your dream) and then the elements/symbols and the power of that myth become direct inner knowing as they spontaneously manifest and unfold.

I recently read:


So is non-duality a trance i.e. a dream state of consciousness?

Non-duality basically means there is no separate individual volitional person. That is the illusion which creates all suffering. If he who suffers ceases, then that's the end of that. I think that's a fair summary of the ND paradigm.
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Old 15-10-2017, 09:56 PM
sentient sentient is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
Non-duality basically means there is no separate individual volitional person. That is the illusion which creates all suffering. If he who suffers ceases, then that's the end of that. I think that's a fair summary of the ND paradigm.

Yes Gem, that is/seems to be the general consensus in which the independently existing separate self-identity is regarded to be an illusion, a mere dream.
It seems awareness that is trapped in the dualistic absorption is like awareness that has been hypnotized by appearances and gone asleep, and we take this unconscious day-awareness-sleep-state so for granted that we think the me/I exists and the external to me/I exists independently.
In dual absorption we only seem to see form, ignoring the space/emptiness dimension/aspect of reality.
Got that.

But here is where it gets sketchy:
Yet - when we do awake to the dimension beyond linear time and space, this awakening can take many forms and I assume this is due to our souls conditioning (lives present and past).
The Energy of Pure Consciousness or the Source Essence or the “Grace” that comes upon us (if we experience the energy coming from “above”) can be “seen” as the Thunderbird Force Field or the Holy Ghost, (or Shiva????), depending within which tradition we wake up in.
This Immense Energy or Power rather that “descends down” or engulfs/consumes us, makes us EMPTY vehicles of that Power, - that seems to be the same in all traditions, yet the service is done in somewhat different ways also depending on our tradition or souls conditioning.

Perhaps one could call non-duality as “Actuality”, but within that actuality there are many “Realities”, and I would call those as different “Dreamings of “Actuality”.
Besides, it seems to me that one can wake up in different “dreaming (as reality) positions” within that Nondual spectrum.

Last edited by sentient : 15-10-2017 at 11:04 PM.
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  #4  
Old 16-10-2017, 02:18 PM
Iamit Iamit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sentient
The general consensus seems to be, that once you shift and have the realization of “Oneness” - that is it - you are now awake and no longer dreaming.
But can: Everything is present, yet nobody is home … be a dreaming state as well?

I question this, because (getting into biographical stories here) “I have experienced” 3 (4) different awakenings from within different spiritual cultural perspectives/settings.

And yes, the core realization has been the same in each, but the curious thing is, that those moments of enter into the dimension beyond time and space came with perfectly timed (synchronistic), spontaneously manifested, highly specific cultural wrappings/phenomena unfolding “on cue” to witness.

A myth is just a myth and a pointer story until you wake up within one (or go lucid in your dream) and then the elements/symbols and the power of that myth become direct inner knowing as they spontaneously manifest and unfold.

I recently read:


So is non-duality a trance i.e. a dream state of consciousness?

Good question. Consider this. If there is nothing but the dream of difference where there is no difference whatsoever, then where else is there for the concept of non duality to arise? In this response Oneness is not meant to describe some kind of entity but that despite the very convincing appearance of difference, All is One.

Its an idea, a story. That does not degrade it because there would be nothing but stories in an illusion of difference. So whatever a seeker may select as a solution to the spiritual search would have no more claim to truth than any other, so one would not have to carry the burden of first establishing whether the story resonated with was true or not. For a graphic example of this see Soren Kierkegaard's parable of the highwayman.
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Old 17-10-2017, 01:15 PM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sentient
Yes Gem, that is/seems to be the general consensus in which the independently existing separate self-identity is regarded to be an illusion, a mere dream.
It seems awareness that is trapped in the dualistic absorption is like awareness that has been hypnotized by appearances and gone asleep, and we take this unconscious day-awareness-sleep-state so for granted that we think the me/I exists and the external to me/I exists independently.
In dual absorption we only seem to see form, ignoring the space/emptiness dimension/aspect of reality.
Got that.

But here is where it gets sketchy:
Yet - when we do awake to the dimension beyond linear time and space, this awakening can take many forms and I assume this is due to our souls conditioning (lives present and past).
The Energy of Pure Consciousness or the Source Essence or the “Grace” that comes upon us (if we experience the energy coming from “above”) can be “seen” as the Thunderbird Force Field or the Holy Ghost, (or Shiva????), depending within which tradition we wake up in.
This Immense Energy or Power rather that “descends down” or engulfs/consumes us, makes us EMPTY vehicles of that Power, - that seems to be the same in all traditions, yet the service is done in somewhat different ways also depending on our tradition or souls conditioning.

Perhaps one could call non-duality as “Actuality”, but within that actuality there are many “Realities”, and I would call those as different “Dreamings of “Actuality”.
Besides, it seems to me that one can wake up in different “dreaming (as reality) positions” within that Nondual spectrum.

I don't think the direct contact with IT can take a form... and as far as I can tell, it never experiences anything of the universe, but it's the strangest of things in that nothing can be known about it other that it being my true nature, our true nature. Hence I find it superflous to discuss Christ, Shiva or Guru figures, but of course we produce knowledge in ways it can be understood within different cultural contexts. I mean 'the big bang' story is only one cosmology among many, and different cultures have different 'dreamtime stories' that give reason to, and take meaning from, the universe. Apart from the Western scientific cosmology, these dreamings typically determine law based in nature, the ways of nature, which is a sort of moral law... an understanding of virtue so to speak.
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Old 17-10-2017, 11:38 PM
sentient sentient is offline
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Well. I don’t know the answers to my question, which is why I asked it, to explore it.
Because sometimes it can be a bit ambiguous, who is dreaming whom.
Is it the absolute/totality dreaming up the relative or the relative dreaming up the absolute?

I think there can be 3 different approaches to “path”.
One is to study/follow a specific spiritual philosophy, dogma or belief and do the practices/ rituals etc. i.e. take the mapped, charted route. The safe option.

The other (more intuitive) approach is to just to remain “unoccupied” (not-doing, not-knowing) and enter the unknown, uncharted territory, the wilderness with nothing but the “antenna” on the top of your head (so to speak), letting the path spontaneously manifest/unfold itself - if it will.
Here the resonating reflections (like echoes of eternity) can be anything (take any form) at any-time and act as guidance and they do have a trance-like, dreaming, non-dual quality about them.

The third approach is perhaps a mixture of both, the intuitive and the grounding knowledge.

Haven’t got a clue what Kierkegaard meant with his “highwayman” (not familiar with Kierkegaard), so I make up my own story.
On that intuitive path there is Spirit waiting in ambush on every mountain pass or ravine and like a “highwayman” demands that you drop your luggage, your valuables, your clothes, well everything in order to proceed onward the next leg of your desolate situation on the path created (by whom?).
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Old 21-10-2017, 08:28 PM
youngnostic youngnostic is offline
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The only way to enter a trance state is to not identify with the world of phenomena, the world of form; which has only arisen because you have mentally projected, or as they say, manifested it in the first place.

Nevertheless you will never enter a trance state if you are still seeking something within the world of form.

Hence the teaching of neo-advaita stating that seeking is the cause of not finding is a valid one, though for many is too difficult to put in practice because of the lack of closure or Innerstanding...


Which is why it is in fact Innerstanding that creates the self to drop.

I've had several deaths of 'ego'; deaths of 'I'; or as I prefer them to be called: 'reality checks' but to me they were all related to my so-called self.

The result was astonishing and indeed not without fruit... which resulted in my beginning to perceive the thoughts that are coming from my subconscious mind, which are nothing but my will... or rather the will of the Omniwill.

EDIT #01:

To better address the subject of the topic however, I've learned from reading Encyclopedias about Spirituality that Sufis had a state called Fa'naa which literally means Annihilation where one no longer perceives oneself as separate but as a drop the merged with the Ocean and now perceives itself as the Ocean and the fruit of that however, which I've yet to taste is: The Subject - Object and Object used for Knowing i.e. the Knower, Known and the Object Used for Knowing all become One and one no longer see's anything as apart from oneself.

Namaskar.
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Old 21-10-2017, 09:01 PM
youngnostic youngnostic is offline
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To address some of the things you mentioned later on in the thread sentient:

Quote:
(or Shiva????)

Yes you have figured it out: The Trinity of Christianity is rightly equated to the Trinity of Hinduism: Father ; Brahma - Son (Logos/or as I call it: Vibration) - Vishnu ; and just as you have intuited: Shiva is indeed the Baptism of Fire that burns all unlike itself and thus unreal. i.e. Shiva is indeed the destroyer but strictly of unreality... or as some love to shout: 'ego'

Once you Understand that the self you perceive yourself to be is nothing but Awareness and that the reality you perceive outside yourself is nothing but a Stillframe within the Animation of the Symphony of Vibration (Vishnu) then you realize there is no room for a self.

It's not without fault that people soon forget their ego death or perhaps ego trip... hehe, but if you recognize the power of Innerstanding you realize that once it is learned it cannot be unlearned... And since there could be no greater delusion than the delusion that there is a self, and it is separate etc... and since the pairs of duality are in reality not mutually-exclusive you begin to free yourself of their clutches by not clinging to them the only thing that's missing is a full grasp of Innerstanding of what non-duality and no-self implies.

Quote:
The other (more intuitive) approach is to just to remain “unoccupied” (not-doing, not-knowing) and enter the unknown, uncharted territory, the wilderness with nothing but the “antenna” on the top of your head (so to speak), letting the path spontaneously manifest/unfold itself - if it will.
Here the resonating reflections (like echoes of eternity) can be anything (take any form) at any-time and act as guidance and they do have a trance-like, dreaming, non-dual quality about them.

I once heard a teacher say: religions are ladders to the roof... once you are on the roof you no longer need a ladder.

It's true: searching through religion is done to unburden oneself of a burden that can only be unburdened by throwing it off rather than seeking new burdens... and every added burden is a burden indeed.

Nevertheless, while I don't have one Master or consider one being my Master but rather see that every speck of dust, every ant, is equally my Master as the Guru's you spoke of, of the Timeless Past.

To refrain from seeking is to either be inexhaustible in your quest for what the Tao of Silence call's the 'Highest Enlightenment'-- in which case it says on one of it's Monastery's walls: "When you see a student try to seek the Highest Enlightenment quickly hold him by his belt so that his feet do not leave the ground." --
or to come to perceive intuitively as some have indeed have but that is nothing but 'Holy Understanding' when you realize that cause of your pain which is indeed as modern mystics have spoken: seeking is the cause behind not finding.

But should you find yourself an enigma that is inexhaustable and despite your most sincere efforts to embrace non-duality which in reality means not clinging to the world of form for if you acknowledge that everything is one but still seek something from the world of form you are still living within a dualistic paradigm. Now here is where it get's tricky: we can be IN the world but not OF the world. Which is why I enjoy the saying: "Know the Truth: but respect the Illusion."
You simply need to heed a master's words and I was given the permission to share this one:
'Close your eyes and pursue Nothing.

No further instructions are needed to become one with the universe

Since you are simply returning Home'
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Old 26-10-2017, 02:24 AM
sentient sentient is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamit
In this response Oneness is not meant to describe some kind of entity but that despite the very convincing appearance of difference, All is One.
Found a good quote:
"There may come the time where one wakes up to the inherent empty wakefulness that is timeless, impersonal (empty in essence), cognizant by nature, and all-pervasive in its capacity."
To me that quote states very simply what awakening is all about, it is when pure awareness wakes up to itself within us (one could say perhaps?)
So. Impersonal, empty in essence, as in - no entity, I do get that.

We call awakening an energetic shift, or maybe one could call it a shift in vibrations?
However, now being so hypnotized by the awakened Non-dual view and becoming Nondual-club philosophists/evangelists as our occupation - aren’t we forgetting something here – the energy that brought one to that awakening.

I asked if this perhaps is Shiva????, (because obviously, I am clueless here in regards to Indian terminology though I would like to learn). But I have since learned that: Shiva (Pure Awareness) is like dead without the divine energy, Shakti.
So looks like "Shakti" was the word I was after, which could be equated to “Holy Ghost” (?).

And when we start to talk about Divine Energy – that energy starts to have a haunting sense, quality and a feeling of “Entity”.

We can be awakened by the Pure Awareness (aspect) and we can be empowered by the Energetic aspect (Energy wakes up to itself?).

There can be spontaneous awakenings simultaneously happening with other person or persons, but I think empowerment is a lone affair, since that energy as we embody it – individuates.

Not exactly sure what I am saying here, but something like that.
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Old 26-10-2017, 12:22 PM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sentient
Well. I don’t know the answers to my question, which is why I asked it, to explore it.
Because sometimes it can be a bit ambiguous, who is dreaming whom.
Is it the absolute/totality dreaming up the relative or the relative dreaming up the absolute?

It doesn't seem to follow in any reason or logic, but each cultural paradigm rests on its particular 'dreaming', or mythology, in other words.

Quote:
I think there can be 3 different approaches to “path”.
One is to study/follow a specific spiritual philosophy, dogma or belief and do the practices/ rituals etc. i.e. take the mapped, charted route. The safe option.

The other (more intuitive) approach is to just to remain “unoccupied” (not-doing, not-knowing) and enter the unknown, uncharted territory, the wilderness with nothing but the “antenna” on the top of your head (so to speak), letting the path spontaneously manifest/unfold itself - if it will.
Here the resonating reflections (like echoes of eternity) can be anything (take any form) at any-time and act as guidance and they do have a trance-like, dreaming, non-dual quality about them.

I think as we stop to observe we can see how the experience unfolds, but seemingly without any inherent reason as to why or how, and we become somewhat reduced to 'it just is', but as we see, each culture is a historical narrative which begins with mythical creation stories. I have found that these vastly differing epistemologies all 'make sense' in that they provide a foundation or fundamental framework for giving meaning, and making a 'way of understanding', which seems appropriate in any given cultural context.

Quote:
The third approach is perhaps a mixture of both, the intuitive and the grounding knowledge.

Haven’t got a clue what Kierkegaard meant with his “highwayman” (not familiar with Kierkegaard), so I make up my own story.
On that intuitive path there is Spirit waiting in ambush on every mountain pass or ravine and like a “highwayman” demands that you drop your luggage, your valuables, your clothes, well everything in order to proceed onward the next leg of your desolate situation on the path created (by whom?).

I've not read Kierkegaard. But true enough to say that the concept of 'mine' is also understood in various ways in different cultures, according to the respective worldview regarding 'what is a person'.
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