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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Love & Relationships -Friends and Family

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  #21  
Old 02-11-2017, 09:51 AM
Lorelyen Lorelyen is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 6,007
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7luminaries
Lorelyen, I for one don't think your answer is at all offensive, and I'm glad you speak your mind I'm jumping in to offer a few words but in no way to interrupt your response to Jro. I don't mean to interfere with that conversation at all.

though I may agree in part with what you're saying, I see things differently in other ways. I do think some men are ok with being your friend, particularly at work or in a group set aside for some other purpose, but as a whole, there are very few deep, long-term, agape-based personal friendships between adult, non-familial men and women.

There's a lot here to discuss! So if I may just take up one issue more to elaborate than disagree.

Quote:
Eating, drinking, and excreting are natural too, and require no one else. These in fact (plus shelter) are all that is required for any one person to survive. However we don't just eat or drink anything. And we don't relieve ourselves just anywhere or in any way. We have huge cultural overlays that shape our behaviour and thoughts for even these most basic and required natural urges to eat, drink, and excrete. Totally nothing to do with any religion for many.

So we can hardly think that sex, which involves another person and is not required for your personal survival, would be any different. The simple fact is we're not purely animal. We are suffused with spirit and sentience, and if we seek to deny or negate that, we are neither fully human nor even the innocent beast..................
..................
But I also hear something else in what you're saying, which is that it's never been this way (partnership was arranged and/or coerced historically) and it's still not this way yet today. We've not yet found our way. We have this archaic paradigm of yesteryear and now we have total amorality and misdirection at the cultural level as the "modern alternative".

Thus many don't yet know how to live from a place of integrity within themselves (without a rigidly imposed archaic paradigm), nor do they understand the implications of choosing to live from a place of integrity regarding intimacy, sex, and partnership.

I honestly appreciate your view and it may apply among spiritually-inspired people in their relationships but the taboo so far as Ms Average goes comes with a loophole – girls dolling up. Why, if not to make themselves attract? And whom? I posit it’s to attract men and that’s in response to basic drives (in Freud’s “unconscious mind”) which is (as best we know) nature’s way of bringing the genders together.

Within the same taboo comes sex-for-pleasure for those “socially approved” – people found ways to avoid reproduction to enjoy just the sensations. In the more spiritually broadminded the energies border on magic – as in using them for something other than the pure sensations of the act - closer to the occult but still part of it. Has its usese - for example, mutually exploring one’s deepest mysteries requiring the catalyst of a “partner” (a word I hate, but it’ll do here) and which needs a deep sensual affinity.

Cultural expectations change over time. 100 years ago, marriage was the only way to legitimise sex. Then 60 years ago the young rebelled. As I understand they could afford what’s now thought of as promiscuity because STDs had just about been wiped out; AIDS wasn’t on the horizon and places like the Brook Centres helped with advice and various services. Although the permissiveness has gone the fallout has downgraded marriage so anyone who can declare another a “partner” can legitimise sex, more recently the partners don’t have to live together. (All of which hasn’t been good for offspring).

But there it is – many set out to attract sexually. Others like me don’t. I wear a bra for support and have had my hair lightened a bit but nothing otherwise to make me something physically I’m not! If I attract it’s WYSIWYG, as the old computer term went!

I don’t think we have to negate sentience or spirit to be able to indulge. But if people are patient enough to avoid the immediate lure - not easy in today's ;instant gratification world - then enter each other’s firmaments gradually, enduring love grows if it works at all. (It’s important to me now where sex is a lesser part of a relationship. Curious it may sound it doesn’t have to matter.

Quote:
Instead, if not following old oppressive strictures, many will rely now on the usual motley assortment of power, control, manipulation, physicality, urges, and ego needs (the normative, mainstream guidance). Equally oppressive in many ways, and perhaps vastly more insidious.

And yet we find ourselves at this juncture...moving beyond the old ways but for many now without any direction, vision, or heart. There is no historic map nor any solutions to be found in the harsh, tired oppression of patriarchy, religious orthodoxy and power-over structures more broadly. And yet there is no ready map or cultural reference point in our amoral, utilitarian modern society either.

There is however a great opportunity at this juncture to go where humanity have not ever gone before. It's for us to forge a new path for humanity, one of authentic love in being and doing (i.e., made manifest). For ourselves, for others, and for all that is.

Peace & blessings

7L
Perhaps it'll veer that way. Hence we need understanding rather than censorship which leads to exploitation. We need to be aware. (It's surprising how much of this subject crops up in marketing!)
Thank you for such a detailed response.

Same to you, 7L, peace
.
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  #22  
Old 02-11-2017, 10:05 AM
Lorelyen Lorelyen is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 6,007
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jro5139
Not sure I should answer this because not sure I can without offending every man that reads it...
I'm really not trying to man- bash but in my experience, no, because men always want the sexual aspect, and when they realize they aren't going to get it, they get angry and leave. Some even try to say they want friendship and that's ok, still the saga always ends the same.
At this age (old), I would rather my relationships start with friendship, but I don't meet men who are willing to do that. So you either have to jump into bed with them right away, or they are gone. It's an all or nothing situation.

It's a sad fact of the instant-gratification culture. The old rules as I was discussing with 7L up there have gone, the courtship, the convergence of whether you want to spend the rest of your life with someone - and if not you can say bye-bye honestly and move on (in a society that doesn't force marriages).

I'm of the same view now. Sex is a lesser part in the richness of the relationship. Let's face it, men tend to fall into a lull after their repertoire runs dry...so do women I suppose.... and it falls into a routine that can become boring and tiresome! You need more than that to share your being with another (as far as is possible) and, as it were, to become of one mind.
.
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  #23  
Old 02-11-2017, 02:11 PM
Lorelyen Lorelyen is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 6,007
 
I didn't really answer this at all. I agree outright with the notion.......
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7luminaries
But I also hear something else in what you're saying, which is that it's never been this way (partnership was arranged and/or coerced historically) and it's still not this way yet today. We've not yet found our way. We have this archaic paradigm of yesteryear and now we have total amorality and misdirection at the cultural level as the "modern alternative".

Thus many don't yet know how to live from a place of integrity within themselves (without a rigidly imposed archaic paradigm), nor do they understand the implications of choosing to live from a place of integrity regarding intimacy, sex, and partnership.

Instead, if not following old oppressive strictures, many will rely now on the usual motley assortment of power, control, manipulation, physicality, urges, and ego needs (the normative, mainstream guidance). Equally oppressive in many ways, and perhaps vastly more insidious.

And yet we find ourselves at this juncture...moving beyond the old ways but for many now without any direction, vision, or heart. There is no historic map nor any solutions to be found in the harsh, tired oppression of patriarchy, religious orthodoxy and power-over structures more broadly. And yet there is no ready map or cultural reference point in our amoral, utilitarian modern society either.
Yes, problem indeed. A good summary if you'll excuse me saying so; and a few other variables enter the equation about us increasingly expected to be puppets to several masters. The culture is always in flux but it is no longer just the shared orientation of its members but the demands of overlords that seek to manipulate people – financially, commercially, occupationally, health-wise, social-engineering-wise, religion still bleating away.

People are getting like Pavlov’s dogs the day he rang all the bells at once. They don’t know which way to turn. Is it any wonder the issue of the young increasingly succumbing to mental problems. For many (well, here in the UK) nihilism is taking over - what, about the future, is worth looking towards?

Here, we find a new spirituality hoping to put sticking plasters over mental aberrations without getting to the root of the problem because it can't. It can't influence the powers above the emerging and fragmented culture. Yes, a few astute spiritually-inspired seekers may pick and mix to forge a useful track from the jungle but most will be confounded by the plethora of different tools out there. But really it needs a union of spirit without becoming a religion:

Quote:
There is however a great opportunity at this juncture to go where humanity have not ever gone before. It's for us to forge a new path for humanity, one of authentic love in being and doing (i.e., made manifest). For ourselves, for others, and for all that is.

It's a little like Psalm 37 & Matthew: the meek will inherit the earth! The culture may settle down. Enough of us pushing for a constructive use of the energies may show the way to undermine the destructive. It was a surprise to find the topic "As without so within; as within so without" raised on the twin flame section - less surprise that no one (apart from me) commented.

A most interesting discussion.
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  #24  
Old 03-11-2017, 02:47 AM
jro5139 jro5139 is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 512
 
I think that woman dress up for each other just as much, if not more, than to try to attract a man. I think a lot of it is competition. There aren't even that many man where I work and the woman dress up and wear lots of jewelry. lol..
I see nothing wrong with dressing nice though. I guess I don't care about the cavemen that can't handle it.

The courtship is def gone. Unless you date a man sig older than myself, you're not going to find that.
I thought about it though, and the men that I can talk to and relate to on a friendship level are older, and married and have respect for boundaries (for whatever reason). Men that are single, don't usually care much to be friends with a woman, they don't seem to. I've only met a couple guys in adulthood that were single and actually were my friend for a pro-longed time.

Although when I'm out in public, it's not men's energies that I find hard to take, it's women's. Men's energies in public and whatnot, generally do not bother me.
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