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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Science & Spirituality

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  #21  
Old 11-09-2017, 07:58 PM
linen53 linen53 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver
I'm not so sure I even believe in 'karma'. I think it may very well be just a catch word to help explain away human judgment - which isn't always accurate to say the least.

Hi Silver, I'd have to concur. I think the concept of karma is in place for some who need it at their stage of development, but as a soul ages they no longer need that crutch. Same goes for "sin".
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  #22  
Old 11-09-2017, 08:04 PM
baro-san baro-san is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sky123
Something done with right intention is not ignorance but wisdom.
Sorry, you misunderstood my post; it was too concise. Ignorance, as per buddhism, is the cause of our karmic traces, samsara, etc.. One may have the best intentions, but their innate ignorance affects their judgement of the situation, causing them to think that they act good, while actually acting the opposite.

There are very few people that when proven to have thought wrong, in spite of their best intentions, feel responsible for that. Typical un-exculpatory replies: "who would've known", "but everybody thought so", "but we were told so", "the consensus was", etc..

Righteous people make often that mistake too.
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  #23  
Old 11-09-2017, 08:06 PM
baro-san baro-san is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linen53
Hi Silver, I'd have to concur. I think the concept of karma is in place for some who need it at their stage of development, but as a soul ages they no longer need that crutch. Same goes for "sin".
We obviously have quite different systems of beliefs. But I love dogs too
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  #24  
Old 11-09-2017, 08:15 PM
linen53 linen53 is offline
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One more thing came to mind regarding your breast cancer gene Snow Goose. And I think it needs to be added.

I've known people who struggle with, for example, finances most of their lives. One conflict after another. The car breaks down, the refrigerator goes on the fritz, the daughter breaks her arm. But then their finances improves. What happens? Their health declines.

No matter what we do to take the roadblocks out of our path, new ones will be added later down the road. Because we will learn what we came to learn.
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  #25  
Old 11-09-2017, 08:18 PM
linen53 linen53 is offline
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Originally Posted by baro-san
We obviously have quite different systems of beliefs. But I love dogs too

I think it is wonderful that we think differently. I don't feel the least bit threatened that your belief system is different. And you know what? We are both right (lol, in my opinion). Because my beliefs are right for me and yours are right for you! It grounds us to our Earthly experience.

Dogs, cats and ducks here
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  #26  
Old 11-09-2017, 11:26 PM
organic born organic born is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linen53
baro-san, I am here just doing, living, experiencing, surviving and learning. I was puzzled for a very long time just how karma worked. Now I don't give a hoot about karma. I put it in the same category as "sin". Because it keeps many from just experiencing the human aspect of why we are here.

organic, I don't take this lifetime seriously. It's just another "drop in the bucket" of my many incarnations.

.....

I truly believe in previous incarnations I analyzed things to much. In this one I've learned or am experiencing living my life by my gut instincts.

Lol, bunch of random thoughts, sorry for the chaos, but it's hard for me to put down into words.

Many of your conclusions used to be my conclusions but I no longer view things with these assumptions in mind. I no longer consider reincarnation actively, I no longer think in terms of young and old souls, I no longer consider karma in the ways that I used to... meanwhile, I easily agree with living life by ones intuitive gut instincts, we are both on the same page with this one. :)

The problem with the others above stem from the assumption that we would know enough, mentally, in order to 'categorize' with some accuracy. Our mental state is limited to this particular lifetime. Any assumptions that we'd make would be thusly limited as well. I remember aspects of previous lives, but this doesn't help me with the deeper implications of what that life was intended to address, so to gain insight into this life, based on another, tends to assume that we understand what isn't at all physical.

The old soul and young soul determinations made me feel good about myself for awhile, because I instantly defined myself as the older soul version when clearly I have very little understanding as to what fully exists outside of this current strickly-humanized experience. I would be basing my assumptions within limited and self serving ways.

And the term Karma could easily be a result of our human propensity to view ourselves and others in a hierarchical way. Good karma leads to good things? Bad karma leads to bad? I've seen plenty of good people having really hard times, and nasty low-lives who seem to fare fairly well. As a workable thesis, I think the term karma is a wash. We can fabricate an idea of what karma may be but it will only reflect our current definitions as they stand.

I found that in dropping the terminology I'm left more open to what's squarely in front of me. I don't have to understand what I can't possibly comprehend. This leaves me freer to adjust to the moment with much greater flexibility.

I no longer nurture a belief structure, outside of the raw outline that's required for functionality.

If we know 'that we are guessing' then the pressure is off to come up with a scenario that we then need to sell both to ourselves and to others. We can simply relax and be quiet, flexibly adapting to each moment as it arises spontaneously. Anything else feels contrived.

A belief in "nothing" sounds odd, until we start doing it.
With few pre-conditions each interaction presents itself in a fresh and newly composed way. Life becomes boring if we fit things into boxes, let them run free and they magically compose the most unpredictable music. :)

The key to a variably-in-tones may be found in our openness. While it's inherently hard to be genuinely open when we think we know more than we do.
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  #27  
Old 12-09-2017, 01:01 AM
linen53 linen53 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by organic born
Many of your conclusions used to be my conclusions but I no longer view things with these assumptions in mind. I no longer consider reincarnation actively, I no longer think in terms of young and old souls, I no longer consider karma in the ways that I used to... meanwhile, I easily agree with living life by ones intuitive gut instincts, we are both on the same page with this one. :)

The problem with the others above stem from the assumption that we would know enough, mentally, in order to 'categorize' with some accuracy. Our mental state is limited to this particular lifetime. Any assumptions that we'd make would be thusly limited as well. I remember aspects of previous lives, but this doesn't help me with the deeper implications of what that life was intended to address, so to gain insight into this life, based on another, tends to assume that we understand what isn't at all physical.

The old soul and young soul determinations made me feel good about myself for awhile, because I instantly defined myself as the older soul version when clearly I have very little understanding as to what fully exists outside of this current strickly-humanized experience. I would be basing my assumptions within limited and self serving ways.

And the term Karma could easily be a result of our human propensity to view ourselves and others in a hierarchical way. Good karma leads to good things? Bad karma leads to bad? I've seen plenty of good people having really hard times, and nasty low-lives who seem to fare fairly well. As a workable thesis, I think the term karma is a wash. We can fabricate an idea of what karma may be but it will only reflect our current definitions as they stand.

I found that in dropping the terminology I'm left more open to what's squarely in front of me. I don't have to understand what I can't possibly comprehend. This leaves me freer to adjust to the moment with much greater flexibility.

I no longer nurture a belief structure, outside of the raw outline that's required for functionality.

If we know 'that we are guessing' then the pressure is off to come up with a scenario that we then need to sell both to ourselves and to others. We can simply relax and be quiet, flexibly adapting to each moment as it arises spontaneously. Anything else feels contrived.

A belief in "nothing" sounds odd, until we start doing it.
With few pre-conditions each interaction presents itself in a fresh and newly composed way. Life becomes boring if we fit things into boxes, let them run free and they magically compose the most unpredictable music. :)

The key to a variably-in-tones may be found in our openness. While it's inherently hard to be genuinely open when we think we know more than we do.

There is sooo much I don't know and don't feel inclined to construct a paradigm aka "box" to put them in and I feel free in my non-definition of these things. I think I've gotten to the point of "it just doesn't matter". It will take care of itself when I arrive there. And like you said, we only have the mind of this incarnation to work with. I will say though, that my gut tells me there is much more than we can ever imagine. Layers, upon layers of possibilities out there. What they are I don't know and again, not to sound redundant, I don't care to define them. I just know I'm in good hands and will be taken care of (another gut feeling).

Whenever I read an author on spiritual matters that uses fear as a hook I close that book and donate it to the nearest thrift store. I've gotten this far and still standing, I'm sure I will make it the rest of the way just fine, bruises and bumps included.

You did mention the notion of convincing ourselves and "others". I'd like to concentrate on the "others". I don't try to change another person or their way of thinking. It's my opinion that we all weave ourselves through lifetime after lifetime, picking up tidbits of information here and there, experiencing this and that and pretty much define our own spirituality on our own as we go, having a little fun along the way. No one person is going to give me that big WOW! moment. And my WOW moment might be different than yours. I've had a lot of wows! so far but not the big one if there is such a thing.

I guess I feel triumphant because I'm 64 years old and have made it through the worse that I came here to learn. I could have failed but I didn't and for that I am very happy and grateful because I put a lot on my plate this time around.
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  #28  
Old 12-09-2017, 03:09 AM
baro-san baro-san is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by organic born
Many of your conclusions used to be my conclusions but I no longer view things with these assumptions in mind. ... nothing ...

We can chose to think there is something after this life, or that there is nothing, then live accordingly.

If you believe there's nothing, and lived accordingly, you will have an unpleasant surprise if you find there is something. At best, you wasted a life.

If you believe there's something, even if there's nothing, you won't be surprised, and won't be caught unprepared.
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  #29  
Old 12-09-2017, 03:50 AM
linen53 linen53 is offline
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baro-san, in my opinion, no belief system is wasted. It all accumulates, i.e., builds on itself.
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  #30  
Old 12-09-2017, 04:22 AM
Silver Silver is offline
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baro-san said, "
We can chose to think there is something after this life, or that there is nothing, then live accordingly.
If you believe there's nothing, and lived accordingly, you will have an unpleasant surprise if you find there is something. At best, you wasted a life.
If you believe there's something, even if there's nothing, you won't be surprised, and won't be caught unprepared."

I don't think that's what anyone here is saying that they don't believe there is anything after physical demise - it's simply saying in all honesty that they don't know. And more importantly, that they're leaving it open, to see what happens without making any judgment calls on it.

I only speak for myself now: I think your way of thinking puts people in danger of psychologically and emotionally hamstringing themselves, because they're letting others' opinions put them over a barrel and not giving themselves the responsibility for ferreting out their own answers and explanations for stuff.
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