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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Non Duality

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  #1  
Old 17-08-2017, 01:17 AM
Iamit Iamit is offline
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What changes in satsang?

What changes is the end of feeling disconnected when it is seen that feeling disconnected is itself not disconected! Amazingly not seeing that is also not disconnected. There really is no escape from total connection already which is unavoidable and unconditional. Which is why nothing needs to change for the purpose of connection. If this message is kept clear and uncompromised it is how nonduality ends the search in satsang:
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  #2  
Old 17-08-2017, 12:38 PM
Moondance Moondance is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamit
What changes is the end of feeling disconnected when it is seen that feeling disconnected is itself not disconected! Amazingly not seeing that is also not disconnected. There really is no escape from total connection already which is unavoidable and unconditional. Which is why nothing needs to change for the purpose of connection. If this message is kept clear and uncompromised it is how nonduality ends the search in satsang:

Yes. There is no escape from connection to ‘always already’ Oneness - which is unavoidable and unconditional.

It’s just the seeing of this (the realisation of this) that is relative and often obscured by conditions.

But as you always rightly point out, even the not seeing of this is still not disconnected - it’s just that it’s not realised either.
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  #3  
Old 17-08-2017, 10:43 PM
Iamit Iamit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moondance
Yes. There is no escape from connection to ‘always already’ Oneness - which is unavoidable and unconditional.

It’s just the seeing of this (the realisation of this) that is relative and often obscured by conditions.

But as you always rightly point out, even the not seeing of this is still not disconnected - it’s just that it’s not realised either.

The message is not kept clear and uncompromised if realization is set up as a condition rather than not realizing simply referred to as another example of oneness manifest.
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  #4  
Old 18-08-2017, 10:57 AM
Moondance Moondance is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamit
The message is not kept clear and uncompromised if realization is set up as a condition rather than not realizing simply referred to as another example of oneness manifest.

Realisation is simply the falling away of the condition of delusion to reveal that which is always the case.

The modes by which delusion is dissolved vary - some advocate a message that is clear and uncompromised.
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  #5  
Old 19-08-2017, 12:31 AM
Iamit Iamit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moondance
Realisation is simply the falling away of the condition of delusion to reveal that which is always the case.

The modes by which delusion is dissolved vary - some advocate a message that is clear and uncompromised.

Delusion does not have to be dissolved for the purpose of connection........for one very good reason:)

If the purpose is to end the feeling of disconnection then to suggest that something needs to end for that purpose would be unnecessarily setting up a barrier to that purpose and adding to the burden.
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  #6  
Old 19-08-2017, 10:16 AM
Moondance Moondance is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamit
Delusion does not have to be dissolved for the purpose of connection........for one very good reason:)

Yes, from the start it has been agreed that nothing needs to change or dissolve for Oneness (or connection to Oneness) to be the case.

It would be a red herring to repeatedly suggest otherwise.

So once again let’s be clear, realisation is ONLY required for realisation to be the case.

Do you disagree that in order for realisation to be the case, realisation is required? (again, no red herrings please, I’m not asking about connection only about realisation of connection.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamit
If the purpose is to end the feeling of disconnection then to suggest that something needs to end for that purpose would be unnecessarily setting up a barrier to that purpose and adding to the burden.

But the opening post of this very thread is about ‘ending the search’ and the role of satsang.
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  #7  
Old 20-08-2017, 12:23 AM
Iamit Iamit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moondance
Yes, from the start it has been agreed that nothing needs to change or dissolve for Oneness (or connection to Oneness) to be the case.

It would be a red herring to repeatedly suggest otherwise.

So once again let’s be clear, realisation is ONLY required for realisation to be the case.

Do you disagree that in order for realisation to be the case, realisation is required? (again, no red herrings please, I’m not asking about connection only about realisation of connection.)

But the opening post of this very thread is about ‘ending the search’ and the role of satsang.

The way nonduality ends the search for connection in satsang is by describing connection as unconditional and unavoidable and therefore requiring no change whatsoever. This of course includes changes such as the end of feeling disconnected and realization. If it is not presented in this way and tasks such as realization presented as required, then a condition is created to further burden the seeker, and then of course nonduality loses its basic tenet as unconditional and unavoidable. It then becomes like all other paths and practises with conditions which are required to be met.

Any condition that can be imagined for nonduality to end the search for connection, does not have to be met and there lies its uniqueness.
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  #8  
Old 20-08-2017, 10:13 AM
Moondance Moondance is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamit
The way nonduality ends the search for connection in satsang is by describing connection as unconditional and unavoidable and therefore requiring no change whatsoever. This of course includes changes such as the end of feeling disconnected and realization. If it is not presented in this way and tasks such as realization presented as required, then a condition is created to further burden the seeker, and then of course nonduality loses its basic tenet as unconditional and unavoidable. It then becomes like all other paths and practises with conditions which are required to be met.

Any condition that can be imagined for nonduality to end the search for connection, does not have to be met and there lies its uniqueness.

This is full of the (I'm sure, unintentional) misdirection mentioned before. Here’s a couple of examples:

Quote:
If it is not presented in this way and tasks such as realization presented as required, then a condition is created to further burden the seeker, and then of course nonduality loses its basic tenet as unconditional and unavoidable. It then becomes like all other paths and practises with conditions which are required to be met.

Yes, nonduality IS unconditional and unavoidable. But realisation is not.

Quote:
Any condition that can be imagined for nonduality to end the search for connection, does not have to be met and there lies its uniqueness.

Again, the red herring. We are not talking about connection since repeatedly it has been agreed that connection is always already the case. We are talking about realisation OF connection. Realisation OF connection IS NOT THE CASE until it is.

Also:

“Connection is unconditional and unavoidable and therefore requiring no change whatsoever.”

Yes, repeatedly this has been agreed on.

“This of course includes changes such as the end of feeling disconnected and realization.”

Yes, these are not needed for connection to be the case. But realisation IS needed for realisation of connection to be the case.



Once again (and if possible, without recourse to the red herring), do you disagree that in order for realisation of Oneness (or realisation of connection to Oneness) to be the case, realisation needs to happen?
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  #9  
Old 20-08-2017, 03:47 PM
Jyotir Jyotir is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moondance
This is full of the (I'm sure, unintentional) misdirection mentioned before. Here’s a couple of examples:



Yes, nonduality IS unconditional and unavoidable. But realisation is not.



Again, the red herring. We are not talking about connection since repeatedly it has been agreed that connection is always already the case. We are talking about realisation OF connection. Realisation OF connection IS NOT THE CASE until it is.

Also:

“Connection is unconditional and unavoidable and therefore requiring no change whatsoever.”

Yes, repeatedly this has been agreed on.

“This of course includes changes such as the end of feeling disconnected and realization.”

Yes, these are not needed for connection to be the case. But realisation IS needed for realisation of connection to be the case.



Once again (and if possible, without recourse to the red herring), do you disagree that in order for realisation of Oneness (or realisation of connection to Oneness) to be the case, realisation needs to happen?

Right Moondance,

Or rather,
I'm simply in agreement on your point....which seems to be that the essence of iamit's "unconditionality is ...a very clear condition.

Acknowledging that this is a subtle point, but that red herring is s slippery fish!

~ J

Last edited by Jyotir : 20-08-2017 at 06:06 PM. Reason: change 'iamthat' to 'iamit' (sorry about that)
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  #10  
Old 20-08-2017, 05:54 PM
Moondance Moondance is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jyotir

Right Moondance,

Or rather,
I'm simply in agreement on your point....which seems to be that the essence of iamthat's "unconditionality is ...a very clear condition.

Acknowledging that this is a subtle point, but that red herring is s slippery fish!

~ J

Okay ~ J. The qualified agreement is noted. :)

It is subtle but surely not that subtle.

Imagine a teacher of astronomy with class of 5 year olds. After a few weeks the head approaches the teacher with the concern that the kids are still under the delusion that the earth is flat. The teacher just brushes it off with the comment that “they don't need to be rid of that delusion since the earth is already spherical.”

Baffled, the head points out that they haven’t yet realised that. To which the teacher insists that “realisation is not required because the earth was never flat to begin with.”

It sounds pretty absurd doesn’t it?

Realisation was never required in order to make the earth spherical. It is required in order to have insight into this.
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