Spiritual Forums

Home


Donate!


Articles


CHAT!


Shop


 
Welcome to Spiritual Forums!.

We created this community for people from all backgrounds to discuss Spiritual, Paranormal, Metaphysical, Philosophical, Supernatural, and Esoteric subjects. From Astral Projection to Zen, all topics are welcome. We hope you enjoy your visits.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest, which gives you limited access to most discussions and articles. By joining our free community you will be able to post messages, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own photos, and gain access to our Chat Rooms, Registration is fast, simple, and free, so please, join our community today! !

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, check our FAQs before contacting support. Please read our forum rules, since they are enforced by our volunteer staff. This will help you avoid any infractions and issues.

Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Buddhism

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 12-08-2017, 08:20 AM
Jeremy Bong Jeremy Bong is offline
Master
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Malaysia
Posts: 3,970
  Jeremy Bong's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ground
"'Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play should be known. The diversity in kamma should be known. The result of kamma should be known. The cessation of kamma should be known. The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be known.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said?

"Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect.

"And what is the cause by which kamma comes into play? Contact is the cause by which kamma comes into play.

"And what is the diversity in kamma? There is kamma to be experienced in hell, kamma to be experienced in the realm of common animals, kamma to be experienced in the realm of the hungry shades, kamma to be experienced in the human world, kamma to be experienced in the world of the devas. This is called the diversity in kamma.

"And what is the result of kamma? The result of kamma is of three sorts, I tell you: that which arises right here & now, that which arises later [in this lifetime], and that which arises following that. This is called the result of kamma.

"And what is the cessation of kamma? From the cessation of contact is the cessation of kamma; and just this noble eightfold path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration — is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma.

"Now when a disciple of the noble ones discerns kamma in this way, the cause by which kamma comes into play in this way, the diversity of kamma in this way, the result of kamma in this way, the cessation of kamma in this way, & the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma in this way, then he discerns this penetrative holy life as the cessation of kamma.

"'Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play... The diversity in kamma... The result of kamma... The cessation of kamma... The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be known.' Thus it has been said, and in reference to this was it said.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit...an.html#part-5




"And what is dependent co-arising? From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.
...
"And what is contact? These six are classes of contact: eye-contact, ear-contact, nose-contact, tongue-contact, body-contact, intellect-contact. This is called contact.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....002.than.html


You're selling your cheap sale here again. Try your best to promote something you don't really understand them thoroughly.

I answer your last sentence. Do you advise people to stay alone in cave? That's without all the contacts and in order to have cessation of karma?
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-08-2017, 08:40 AM
Gem Gem is offline
Master
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 16,622
  Gem's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bohdiyana
Volition leading to karma is an interesting idea.

The way I see it, the un-enlightened state, which is the karma producing state, is where one is fully identified with mind/thought so is basically un self aware, or commonly said to be in an "unconscious"state. One is operating in a kind of hypnotized state where one takes the thoughts to be self and just unconsciously goes with it creating a delusional experience of now.

One definition of volition is "the faculty or power of using one's will." So what is the "one" in that unconscious state described above? The ego, the self created through identifying with thought acts. Makes choices. But really it seems to me the true "self" is not acting. The self created by ones conditioning, by identifying with thought, and all of that is acting. The true self is witnessing, experiencing the self it has created through identification with mind.

Enlightened persons do things. Buddha reached enlightenment and no longer created karma. So in Buddha's case, volition did not create karma? But then if one is enlightened, does one act because of volition? Seems like in the enlightened, the act or volition or will is used to choose the enlightened state, not the action. The action comes forth because of the nature of the unconditioned state. So there is no self creating action, thus, no karma is created.

It's interesting though because to me there is a strong and disciplined action or act of will in the enlightened. So there is volition, but it's source is liberated consciousness itself. Consciousness chooses to be awake. To not be identified with mind. To be free from one's conditioning. From that state, action flows naturally without effort or mind. Out of beingness. So no karma is created.

So the idea, volition is karma, is true in one sense, in the un-enlightened. But then volition in the enlightened, is not karma. Volition in the un-enlightened, is a product of ego-self. Volition is the enlightened is the will of true self to be awake and aware and to be non-identified with ego/thought.

Well, all volition is kamma, and it isn't just what we regard in English as intention, because unintentional reactivity is also kamma and produces 'results'. An 'enlightened one', rather than exerting volition in the action reaction cycle that perpetuated rebirth, emanates the endless love endemic to our 'true nature'. Some monks call that 'volition' because they perceive it to be 'good-will'. But the enlightened one has seen through the delusion of themselves, and understands that volition is and always was a delusion born of ignorance on one's true nature.
__________________
.
Check out my signature.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-08-2017, 08:42 AM
Ground Ground is offline
Master
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,003
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Bong
Do you advise people to stay alone in cave? That's without all the contacts.

Phassa is not 'social contact'.
Quote:
"And what is contact? These six are classes of contact: eye-contact, ear-contact, nose-contact, tongue-contact, body-contact, intellect-contact. This is called contact.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-08-2017, 08:43 AM
Gem Gem is offline
Master
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 16,622
  Gem's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bohdiyana
Volition leading to karma is an interesting idea.

The way I see it, the un-enlightened state, which is the karma producing state, is where one is fully identified with mind/thought so is basically un self aware, or commonly said to be in an "unconscious"state. One is operating in a kind of hypnotized state where one takes the thoughts to be self and just unconsciously goes with it creating a delusional experience of now.

One definition of volition is "the faculty or power of using one's will." So what is the "one" in that unconscious state described above? The ego, the self created through identifying with thought acts. Makes choices. But really it seems to me the true "self" is not acting. The self created by ones conditioning, by identifying with thought, and all of that is acting. The true self is witnessing, experiencing the self it has created through identification with mind.

Enlightened persons do things. Buddha reached enlightenment and no longer created karma. So in Buddha's case, volition did not create karma? But then if one is enlightened, does one act because of volition? Seems like in the enlightened, the act or volition or will is used to choose the enlightened state, not the action. The action comes forth because of the nature of the unconditioned state. So there is no self creating action, thus, no karma is created.

It's interesting though because to me there is a strong and disciplined action or act of will in the enlightened. So there is volition, but it's source is liberated consciousness itself. Consciousness chooses to be awake. To not be identified with mind. To be free from one's conditioning. From that state, action flows naturally without effort or mind. Out of beingness. So no karma is created.

So the idea, volition is karma, is true in one sense, in the un-enlightened. But then volition in the enlightened, is not karma. Volition in the un-enlightened, is a product of ego-self. Volition is the enlightened is the will of true self to be awake and aware and to be non-identified with ego/thought.

Well, all volition is kamma, and it isn't just what we regard in English as intention, because unintentional reactivity is also kamma, and produces 'results'. An 'enlightened one', rather than exerting volition in the action reaction cycle that perpetuates rebirth, emanates the endless love endemic to our 'true nature'. Some monks call that 'volition' because they perceive it to be 'good-will'. But the enlightened one has seen through the self-delusion and understands that volition is, and always was, a delusion born of ignorance of one's true nature.
__________________
.
Check out my signature.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-08-2017, 08:58 AM
sky123 sky123 is offline
Master
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,162
 
I think volitation is the same for un-enlightened or enlightened person, it's just intent, Buddha must have had intent but as you said once you realize ' not self ' then your intent or actions are not based on ego, hence no Karma is created.

We all do things sometimes without ego being involved, our ' true self ' does shine through on occasions when our ego allows it, it doesn't approve as it wants to rule
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 12-08-2017, 09:02 AM
Jeremy Bong Jeremy Bong is offline
Master
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Malaysia
Posts: 3,970
  Jeremy Bong's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ground

Phassa is not 'social contact'.

When you see people , meet people, interact with people these are all contacts. So you not yet answer my questions. Are you suggesting you've to stay in cave in order to have cessation of karma or not creating of karma? Any contact with people is a contact as you've said.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-08-2017, 09:09 AM
Ground Ground is offline
Master
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,003
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
Well, all volition is kamma, and it isn't just what we regard in English as intention, because unintentional reactivity is also kamma and produces 'results'.
So it is your private belief's kamma you are talking about.
Why?
Because the authentic sutta has
1. Intention is kamma.
2. The cause is phassa, translated as 'contact'.

'intention' according to Oxfords dictionary is associated with 'one's aim' and that includes the focus of senses and objects of perceptions
'volition' according to Oxfords dictionary is associated with 'making decisions', so volition may or may not arise in the aftermath of intention.

Therefore intention is correct here.

Not knowing what phassa is you come up with your 'unintentional reactivity'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
An 'enlightened one', rather than exerting volition in the action reaction cycle that perpetuated rebirth, emanates the endless love endemic to our 'true nature'. Some monks call that 'volition' because they perceive it to be 'good-will'. But the enlightened one has seen through the delusion of themselves, and understands that volition is and always was a delusion born of ignorance on one's true nature.
That certifies that you are expounding your private beliefs exlusively.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 12-08-2017, 09:18 AM
Jeremy Bong Jeremy Bong is offline
Master
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Malaysia
Posts: 3,970
  Jeremy Bong's Avatar
Gem, volition is the power to choose something freely,or to make your own decision.

And Ground's "contact is karma" is more funny than yours.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 12-08-2017, 10:42 AM
Gem Gem is offline
Master
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 16,622
  Gem's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ground
1. Intention is kamma.

'intention' according to Oxfords dictionary is associated with 'one's aim' and that includes the focus of senses and objects of perceptions
'volition' according to Oxfords dictionary is associated with 'making decisions', so volition may or may not arise in the aftermath of intention.

Therefore intention is correct here.

Not knowing what phassa is



..........
__________________
.
Check out my signature.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 12-08-2017, 11:08 AM
Gem Gem is offline
Master
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 16,622
  Gem's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Bong
Gem, volition is the power to choose something freely,or to make your own decision.

And Ground's "contact is karma" is more funny than yours.

He didn't say contact is kamma - he said 'intention' is kamma. He might not know that 'cetana' is often translated as 'volition'.

I saw a decent video recently which covered things quite well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2dKaqXeCsI&t=3s

The part relevant to this discussion starts at 6:48 minutes and finish at 17:00 minutes
;:
;:15.

The whole video gives a good basic outline of Buddhist philosophy.
__________________
.
Check out my signature.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 05:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) Spiritual Forums