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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Buddhism

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  #1  
Old 07-08-2017, 05:42 AM
Ground Ground is offline
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Why buddhism?

Here I would like to investigate into the question what may be valid reasons for one being interested in buddhism today.

There are many religious beliefs cultivated in the context of buddhism by followes of buddhism which do not comply with what one can validly know.
E.g. Religious believers of buddhism claim that buddhism leads to the cessation of suffering through cessation of the cycle of rebirths. But since rebirth cannot be validly understood non-metaphorically what might it be that ceases to be 'reborn' metaphorically?

Also, is 'suffering' a valid translation of dukkha? If it were then according to buddhism everything in life would be suffering. But based on direct perception and inference one can validly know that suffering is only a potential aspect of life.

So what is dukkha that can be ended according to buddhism really?

A possible way to investigate into 'dukkha' would be to look up what is to be eliminated by the buddhist path according to authentic budddhist texts.


What is to be eliminated by the buddhist path?

Here are the categories and their elements indicating what has to be eliminated on the path to liberation. Of course these categories are partially overlapping:

1. Asava (fermentations, effluents, outflows, taints):
fermentation of sensuality
fermentation of becoming
fermentation of ignorance

2. Kilesa (defilements — in their various forms):
passion (lobha)
aversion (dosa)
delusion (moha)

3. Nivarana (hindrances):
sensual desire (kamacchanda)
ill-will (vyapada)
sloth and drowsiness (thina-middha)
restlessness and worry (uddhacca-kukkucca)
doubt (vicikiccha)

4. Fetters (sanyojana, samyojana):
Self-identity views
uncertainty
grasping at precepts & practices
sensual desire
ill will
passion for form
passion for what is formless
conceit
restlessness
ignorance


So one may conclude that the presence of all these elements is what characterises dukkha and the absence of all these elements is what characterises cessation of dukkha.


But then, why should one be interested in getting rid of these elements?

There is really no valid reason based on valid direct perception and inference why one should decide 'I want to get rid of all these aspects of dukkha'.

If one wants to get rid of something or - positively expressed - if one wants to achieve something then that 'something' must be a directly perceptible phenomenon acccessible to one's direct perception without having to undergo the brain-washing of a philosophy or ideology before.


So it turns out that is really a matter of asking oneself: what do I expect from life? And: Is there something about buddhism that can be useful to achieve what I want to achieve in life or what I want to get rid of to make life more comfortable?

The basic question of what dukkha can stand for would seem to be: Is there persistent unease in my life? Is there a persistent unease that spoils too many aspects of life?

What might be the cause of that unease? Discontent, hatred and aversion, depression, fear of death, timidity, general fearfulness, insatiable greed, frustration because of never getting exactly what one wants, unsatisfied sexual desires, unsatisfied material desires, unsatisfied aesthetic desires, desire in general ... ?


I think that unease is perhaps the best translation of dukkha. It leaves open what may cause this unease in a specific individual and is empty of the exaggeraton 'suffering'.

So it is up to investigate for every individual whether there is a persistent, maybe only subliminal unease in its life that spoils too much. If present, this unease could be directly perceived by means of introspection and thus could be validly known in contrast to all these phenomena that do appear quite technical and contrived due to buddhist nomenclature.

If there is no unease at all then buddhism is of no use. If there is no unease then actually one should neither be interested in buddhism nor interested in any kind of irrational religious belief.
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  #2  
Old 07-08-2017, 08:34 AM
naturesflow naturesflow is offline
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oh here we go again...I feel a small measure of discontent reading this. Where is jonesboy to make it simple for me?
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  #3  
Old 08-08-2017, 03:11 AM
Ground Ground is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naturesflow
...I feel a small measure of discontent reading this.
Unease.

Investigate!
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  #4  
Old 08-08-2017, 03:18 AM
Ground Ground is offline
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What are aims that are worthwhile to pursue?

They must be directly perceptible in order to be existents.

There must be an immediate benefit realizing these aims which must be directly perceptible too.

Their realization must neither cause unease nor add to pre-existent unease but must either reduce or eliminate pre-existent unease.

If there is the slightest uncertainty whether the realization of an aim may be beneficial then it is not worthwhile to pursue because it is not based on valid knowledge.

Therefore only an aim which is the cessation of what is already validly known and which is validly known to be or to cause or to add to unease can be based on valid knowledge of the benefit of its realization. Why? Because it is the current presence of that which is or causes or adds to unease so that the cessation of its presence and the resulting reduction or cessation of unease necessarily is beneficial.

In contrast to these aims that are worthwhile to pursue aims that are the realization of what is not validly known necessarily are a case of doubt because the realization strived for is based on speculative thought and belief in benefits which are merely objects of hope. Such aims are not worthwhile to pursue.

This shows that the buddhist approach to strive for the realization of cessations (negative phenomena) necessarily is a valid approach provided unease and its causes are validly known.
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  #5  
Old 08-08-2017, 04:23 AM
naturesflow naturesflow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ground
Unease.

Investigate!
It went as soon as I felt it and spoke it as I typed. The end.. There is no need to investigate unless you need too? It seems you did..
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  #6  
Old 08-08-2017, 04:44 AM
Ground Ground is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naturesflow
It went as soon as I felt it and spoke it as I typed. The end..

Impermanence. It will be reborn.

Quote:
"Monks, be islands unto yourselves,[1] be your own refuge, having no other; let the Dhamma be an island and a refuge to you, having no other. Those who are islands unto themselves... should investigate to the very heart of things


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....043.wlsh.html

I.e. cessation only arises on the basis of rational analysis.
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  #7  
Old 08-08-2017, 06:50 AM
naturesflow naturesflow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ground
Impermanence. It will be reborn.

What will be reborn, impermanence or the unease?.

Quote:

I.e. cessation only arises on the basis of rational analysis.

I am quite content in my feeling mode, a temporary passing moment expressed out loud..
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And you say," Yes, I'm well prepared ! "
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  #8  
Old 08-08-2017, 08:02 AM
Ground Ground is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naturesflow
What will be reborn, impermanence or the unease?.
The pool of unease is fed by diverse sources. Sometimes the level increases, then it decreases, then it nearly vanished, then it rises again to unknown high levels. Neither quality nor level are permanent.


Quote:
Originally Posted by naturesflow
I am quite content in my feeling mode, a temporary passing moment expressed out loud..
To be discontent would only add to basic unease.
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  #9  
Old 08-08-2017, 01:20 PM
naturesflow naturesflow is offline
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[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ground
The pool of unease is fed by diverse sources. Sometimes the level increases, then it decreases, then it nearly vanished, then it rises again to unknown high levels. Neither quality nor level are permanent.

Yes I had it arise tonight so intense in feeling another persons deeper unease. Hers was so intense but she was in knowing mode (just speaking it out loud) but the feeling layer in her was like a ton of bricks coming at me (not realized complete in her). So I took the hit and let it open up my deeper intensity of unease in feeling, that I was still not balanced in..Boy was it intense, I wanted to take flight from feeling that in me, but I felt it and let it go. She was confused how something so intense could be over and done with fast as I was showing her.



Quote:
To be discontent would only add to basic unease.

Right.
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And you say," Yes, I'm well prepared ! "
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  #10  
Old 08-08-2017, 01:33 PM
jonesboy jonesboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naturesflow
oh here we go again...I feel a small measure of discontent reading this. Where is jonesboy to make it simple for me?

You rang?

Quote:
1. Asava (fermentations, effluents, outflows, taints):
fermentation of sensuality
fermentation of becoming
fermentation of ignorance

2. Kilesa (defilements — in their various forms):
passion (lobha)
aversion (dosa)
delusion (moha)

3. Nivarana (hindrances):
sensual desire (kamacchanda)
ill-will (vyapada)
sloth and drowsiness (thina-middha)
restlessness and worry (uddhacca-kukkucca)
doubt (vicikiccha)

4. Fetters (sanyojana, samyojana):
Self-identity views
uncertainty
grasping at precepts & practices
sensual desire
ill will
passion for form
passion for what is formless
conceit
restlessness
ignorance

Notice each one of these are of the ego.

Look at the Fetters for example:

Self-identity views
uncertainty
grasping at precepts & practices
sensual desire
ill will
passion for form
passion for what is formless
conceit
restlessness
ignorance

All of these are of the mind, of the local mind/ego. When one moves beyond the temporary desires for happiness and pleasure or the aversion one has let go of such obstructions.

You are no longer controlled by them.

Moving beyond is freedom from such automatic responses and addictions.

It is all part of the path, the more and more you let go of stuff, the more you naturally are free from such desires and your innate clarity, bliss, your nature shines forth... Which is much better than the above..

If nothing else, when you experience silence, no such passion for form/things, desire for sex, restlessness and worry are going on. Each of the above are examples of one getting caught up in thoughts, desires, the local mind.

The path is beyond such things.

Hope that makes some sense?
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