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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Non Duality

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  #11  
Old 29-07-2017, 12:31 PM
Moondance Moondance is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eputkonen
Shikantaza and inquiry have turned into traps as well for many. Traps of doing that just reinforce a separate "me".

Shikantaza (or Zazen) is just sitting. Not a "me" sitting. Not in order to get anything. Not a doing in any way. Just sitting...without purpose. The tricky part is can there be a "practicing" of shikantaza without trying to get anything out of it? If so, then it could facilitate this "felt-sense recognition". However, if there is a "me" doing shikantana in order to facilitate this "felt-sense recognition"...now it is corrupted. It turns into something that reinforces the delusion of "me" and reinforces the feeling of separation and fuels the feeling of trying to get out of separation and into "felt-sense recognition".

It is tricky. Shikantaza could help or hinder...depending on the motivation.

Inquiry is the same.

Yes, I see what you are getting at and it is tricky since we could say that the ‘me’ doing shikantaza is no different to the ‘me’ running a blog or participating on a forum or filling in a tax return (except in shikentaza there are no self-referential thoughts.)

The ‘me’ sense, in itself, is not a problem it’s the belief that this body-mind matrix (from which the me sense arises) is an inherently existing entity that is somehow separate from the whole - in this way we overlook our true nature.

Undermining this belief is movement towards clarity.
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  #12  
Old 29-07-2017, 12:32 PM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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It is the case of alignment and adjustment at the more subtle layers of awareness and perception, like tuning in a TV set to the specified channel.

I am Shiva yet Shiva alone exists, independent from my awareness.

Meditation is the tuning mechanism, without which, perception is bombarded by the static of Maya.

My body, mind and psyche has been wracked with the torment of Shakti. Kundalini flows through me like an unbridled wildfire.

I sat in meditation tonight, assumed chinmudra and focused on the silence of Dakshinamurthy (an aspect of Shiva as my Divine Guru).

What happened after that was all the boundaries blurred between the meditation and the focus of it. I became what I was meditating on and the Shakti settled within me - for the time being.

Sanskrit verses just came flowing out, typing in English is difficult. I allowed myself to indulge in the bliss once more.
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  #13  
Old 29-07-2017, 04:50 PM
eputkonen eputkonen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moondance
The ‘me’ sense, in itself, is not a problem it’s the belief that this body-mind matrix (from which the me sense arises) is an inherently existing entity that is somehow separate from the whole - in this way we overlook our true nature.

Undermining this belief is movement towards clarity.

A sense of "me" might arise, and in and of itself - it is not a problem. Believing there is a "me" is the trap. Identifying with anything is a trap - because all identification is a figment of mind...a function of thought. There is nothing personal happening...and yet it's intimate and "full of life". There is no "me"...even-though a sense of "me" might arise.
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Eric Putkonen - blogger on Engaged Nonduality
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  #14  
Old 30-07-2017, 11:22 PM
Iamit Iamit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moondance
Nothing is required in order for your true nature to be the case. It's already the case right now. THIS… is already the case. Oneness is already the case. Reality requires nothing in order for Reality to be.

According to some teachings that's that. They point out 'you are what you seek' ‘Oneness is already the case' therefore any seeking, inquiry, meditation etc. is futile, pointless, worthless.

But this overlooks an essential point - it may be quite true to say that nothing is required in order to BE who you are, but in order to REALISE this, a 'penny dropping' felt-sense-recognition IS required. Without this it's just an intellectual rationalisation (and many teachings are just that.)

Anything that apparently helps facilitate this 'felt-sense recognition' - be it meditation, self-inquiry, existential crisis, solitude, walking across a London park etc. is no bad thing.

But let's be clear, this is not about becoming, it's not about about struggle or straining for perfection, it's not about something that becomes something else - it's about the realisation of something that is always already the case.

It really is nothing to be done for it must already be Oneness not realizing.

:)
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  #15  
Old 31-07-2017, 12:06 PM
Moondance Moondance is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamit
It really is nothing to be done for it must already be Oneness not realizing.

:)

Yes, it is Oneness not realising since Oneness is ALWAYS the case. But the realisation of this requires... the realisation of this.
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  #16  
Old 31-07-2017, 10:41 PM
iamthat iamthat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moondance
Yes, it is Oneness not realising since Oneness is ALWAYS the case. But the realisation of this requires... the realisation of this.

Agreed. It is possible to intellectually understand the philosophy of Advaita and come out with all sorts of statements about Oneness, but without the actual realisation of Oneness such statements are worthless.

Even Ramana Maharshi had his moment of realisation, the moment where false identification fell away and he knew himself to be the Self.

So to simply say that ignorance of the Self is just Oneness not realising seems to be of little help. It may be intellectually satisfying, but ignorance of the Self remains.

So as Moondance says, the realisation of the Self requires the realisation of the Self. Something must happen, something must be released. Otherwise all we have are nice ideas.

Peace.
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  #17  
Old 31-07-2017, 11:22 PM
Iamit Iamit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moondance
Yes, it is Oneness not realising since Oneness is ALWAYS the case. But the realisation of this requires... the realisation of this.

It depends on how what is being sought is defined. If that is defined as connection to Oneness then that is unavoidable no matter what state one is in, including unrealized. Some descriptions of non duality state this clearly, others burden seekers with a particular state to achieve without saying that that state is no more connected to Oneness than the state the seeker is already in,
.
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  #18  
Old 31-07-2017, 11:25 PM
Iamit Iamit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthat
Agreed. It is possible to intellectually understand the philosophy of Advaita and come out with all sorts of statements about Oneness, but without the actual realisation of Oneness such statements are worthless.

Even Ramana Maharshi had his moment of realisation, the moment where false identification fell away and he knew himself to be the Self.

So to simply say that ignorance of the Self is just Oneness not realising seems to be of little help. It may be intellectually satisfying, but ignorance of the Self remains.

So as Moondance says, the realisation of the Self requires the realisation of the Self. Something must happen, something must be released. Otherwise all we have are nice ideas.

Peace.

See reply to moondance.
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  #19  
Old 01-08-2017, 06:10 AM
iamthat iamthat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamit
It depends on how what is being sought is defined. If that is defined as connection to Oneness then that is unavoidable no matter what state one is in, including unrealized. Some descriptions of non duality state this clearly, others burden seekers with a particular state to achieve without saying that that state is no more connected to Oneness than the state the seeker is already in,
.

It is true that the realisation of Oneness is the realisation of what we already are. We are that state whether we realise it or not.

But having the conscious realisation that we are one with everything is vastly different to not knowing this as an everyday reality.

It is the transition from consciousness identified with personality to consciousness identified with Being. That Being has always been present, but to be able to identify with that is indescribable.

So again, without direct realisation, all we have are some nice ideas.

Peace.
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  #20  
Old 01-08-2017, 01:51 PM
Moondance Moondance is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamit
It depends on how what is being sought is defined. If that is defined as connection to Oneness then that is unavoidable no matter what state one is in, including unrealized. Some descriptions of non duality state this clearly, others burden seekers with a particular state to achieve without saying that that state is no more connected to Oneness than the state the seeker is already in,
.

Yes, connection to Oneness (or identity as Oneness) is unavoidably the case - including unrealised. And yes, achieving special states and struggling and striving of any kind won’t bring anyone closer to Oneness. There is no becoming Oneness - it’s already the case. But the realisation (the apprehension/recognition/perception) of this is NOT the case... until it is.
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