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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Meditation

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  #21  
Old 03-08-2017, 03:47 AM
wstein wstein is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
Each post is an increment, and this is never going to arrive at an answer, never come to a conclusion, so any feeling of impatience - that 'get to the point' - will not be fulfilled, as no point will be reached.
You (and many readers) are already at no answer, no conclusion, no point, no fulfillment. I am curious why you feel more increments are forthcoming.

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Originally Posted by Gem
and this isn't supposed to be easy.
Your prose isn't supposed to be easy or the thing you will never reach is not supposed to be easy? Seems lots of people insist on doing things the hard way even when an equally valid easy way is available.
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  #22  
Old 03-08-2017, 06:43 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Originally Posted by peteyzen
I dont know if this is on topic or not, but I remember a krishnamurti quote where he was talking about looking at a mountain for the first time and not commenting or thinking but simply being struck by a sense of awe and in recognising the sense of awe something was lost and, later, in trying to re visit that sense of awe the simple purity of the original awe could never be found.

I think I know what he might mean. A couple of years ago I did a long hike, climbed a grueling mountain, and then the trail took an easier path along the ridge line, and suddenly there was a state, and the thought that occurred to me was, "This is why God made the world". Quite a nonsensical thought, but it captures what it was like to be aligned in a 'knowingness' as the 'natural state'. As JK found, there is no going back to it, and as I say, one can't seek for or do anything to 'get there'.

Well, it passes and states change, so what I'm talking about here isn't a particular kind of state, but the fact that we know 'this' state in the way that it is.

This segue...

We are in a state of one sort or another and there is a knowing of it, but what we find in spiritualism is desires for states other than the one that is. The question really is, is there an entity that desires, or is the desire a motion in itself. If we care to have a look, we feel this desire, we 'hear' the thoughts surround it, we see the imagined object being desired... even as I speak I know people may be waiting for 'what I know' to be revealed so they too may know it, so we have a desire for that knowledge, and we already know all of its charareristics - and usually we might be compelled by it to strive in some way to attain and acquire.

This striving is also known, we can feel its tensions, that psychic energy of drive, and it appears as though there is someone willful here, but all this is noticeable, and very obviously so. That watching isn't unique to me or you. That seen in the motion of forms, feelings and so on is unique to each one, but the facet of being aware of motions is universal - and I doubt anyone would disagree that they are consciously aware of the state of experience as it is now.
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  #23  
Old 03-08-2017, 06:53 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wstein
You (and many readers) are already at no answer, no conclusion, no point, no fulfillment. I am curious why you feel more increments are forthcoming.

I know they are coming because I am not at an end trying to explain something, but the one exploring who has to look and see.

Quote:
Your prose isn't supposed to be easy or the thing you will never reach is not supposed to be easy? Seems lots of people insist on doing things the hard way even when an equally valid easy way is available.

It's going to require a great deal of attention, so if people want simple things and easy things, then maybe watch TV or summat.
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  #24  
Old 03-08-2017, 03:37 PM
peteyzen peteyzen is offline
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The striving you mention , when I consider it, is there, thats true, I wonder if this striving is only an impulse of the mind, which makes me wonder, if the mind ever was to be perfectly still, would action cease? or would something else create action and what would this thing be if it did? In tai chi, at times when i still the mind (as much as I can anyway)and lose myself in the form, parts of my body whilst doing the form, can be observed by me, moving without any noticeable stimulous from me. Maybe that`s not the case but it feels like it.
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  #25  
Old 03-08-2017, 04:06 PM
Gem Gem is offline
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Originally Posted by peteyzen
The striving you mention , when I consider it, is there, thats true, I wonder if this striving is only an impulse of the mind, which makes me wonder, if the mind ever was to be perfectly still, would action cease? or would something else create action and what would this thing be if it did? In tai chi, at times when i still the mind (as much as I can anyway)and lose myself in the form, parts of my body whilst doing the form, can be observed by me, moving without any noticeable stimulous from me. Maybe that`s not the case but it feels like it.

There's really mundane times when I'm walking to somewhere and I find myself just there. My walking is happening as if it has to, and I can't make it stop or do anything to make it other than it is. I don't do the walking or not do it - I just know I'm walking - its like its a destiny unfolding. I don't put anything into it to make it happen, it's simply happening and I'm just there. It's a spacious feeling, big and quiet, but the city is still noisy, I still think of this and that, but I have a sense that I'm not the one doing it and life seems to know what to do. I later think how my breathing is happening while I am here, but I don't do it...
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  #26  
Old 04-08-2017, 08:40 AM
wstein wstein is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peteyzen
The striving you mention , when I consider it, is there, thats true, I wonder if this striving is only an impulse of the mind, which makes me wonder, if the mind ever was to be perfectly still, would action cease? or would something else create action and what would this thing be if it did? In tai chi, at times when i still the mind (as much as I can anyway)and lose myself in the form, parts of my body whilst doing the form, can be observed by me, moving without any noticeable stimulous from me. Maybe that`s not the case but it feels like it.
Action does 'happen' less as the mind stills. However what is going way is turmoil, fidgeting, and other nondirected behaviors. What you refer to in your Tai Chi is what happens. Your body still moves and takes action according to your nature, personality, preferences, and desires. What does not occur is any perceptible thinking about whether or not to take those actions. Whatever is in alignment with who you are just occurs spontaneously.

The conscious portion of your mind can get confused as it is not in the (control) loop. Sometimes the conscious mind is not even aware of something you have done until its all over. While it is true that at the point of action the conscious mind was left out, it does play a role in setting the preferences and desires which triggered that action.

I have found that despite not being in control, my conscious mind retroactively agrees that the action I took is the one it would have taken had it been given the option. Though it does sometimes still whine about not being in control.

Things get a bit ambiguous when you get to total mindlessness states (like Samadhi) as action no longer requires motion from the body or the mind.
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  #27  
Old 04-08-2017, 09:42 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wstein
Action does 'happen' less as the mind stills. However what is going way is turmoil, fidgeting, and other nondirected behaviors. What you refer to in your Tai Chi is what happens. Your body still moves and takes action according to your nature, personality, preferences, and desires. What does not occur is any perceptible thinking about whether or not to take those actions. Whatever is in alignment with who you are just occurs spontaneously.

The conscious portion of your mind can get confused as it is not in the (control) loop. Sometimes the conscious mind is not even aware of something you have done until its all over. While it is true that at the point of action the conscious mind was left out, it does play a role in setting the preferences and desires which triggered that action.

I have found that despite not being in control, my conscious mind retroactively agrees that the action I took is the one it would have taken had it been given the option. Though it does sometimes still whine about not being in control.

Things get a bit ambiguous when you get to total mindlessness states (like Samadhi) as action no longer requires motion from the body or the mind.

The bolded is ... just cool!
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  #28  
Old 05-08-2017, 05:14 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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... and I quote:

There is no starting or stopping; only doing. - Peaceful Warrior
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  #29  
Old 06-08-2017, 04:40 AM
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I'm here, and this is the way it is. I see that it is this way, and not some other way. It is already here and there is nothing I can do to make it otherwise. I now see the mind is preoccupied with distractions. It is quite dull and foggy and can't perceive more than the very gross, hard and solidified. As I realise I have no say in it - it just happens to be this way - the volitions and reactions are slowing in the understanding their utter futility. I am aware of the mind's distraction and it can't go by unnoticed. The mentioned distractive noise cannot seem to withstand this consciously aware gaze. I find myself unattached - mind's noise and emotional reactivity is within 'the observable' along with the contents of this room and the sounds about me - this conscious awareness knowing what is happening moment to moment. Remaining untouched, but in acknowledgment - 'this' is what it's like.

I'm prepared. I have come to my senses, and I feel a deepening focus, a presence. The attention now 'unattracted' by thoughts and things, is - here - realising its immediacy.

The qualia of this moment is more serene that it was when I started this post - and my perception is significantly sharper.
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  #30  
Old 06-08-2017, 11:33 AM
Pagandell Pagandell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
Now the first points are made, it might be good time to begin.

As this isn't an advice column, and it does not consider anything apart from what already is the case, there can be no objective of having some sort of experience apart from that which is currently unfolding, or entering a state of mind other than that of now.

I can not comment as such on that which pertains to particular individuals, experiences and states and the like, and am not attempting to bring about anything other than the experience as it is, just as it happens to be. It's irrelevant if a person is having a high spiritual experience or a mundane physical experience - for this meditation is noticing the way it is, and has nothing to do with the way anyone wants it to be, and it isn't a complicated thing in any way - it's just noticing 'this' in whatever way it is. And not because we have to try to do that, but because awareness of 'this' is already the case.

When you check to see and make sure there is a knowing of this, which is immediately apparent to anyone who does, at that moment of noticing it is this way - that passive checking and immediate realisation is the meditation - and every person already knows how to do that. It can not be taught and it takes no practice.

This frame of mind isn't a mind that is searching for something which can be found, but a mind that sees clearly what is the case. Clarity which is revealing, doubtlessly and without question, there such an instant revelation, so immediate, it's like 'of course, so what?'

This is so what: there was no thought impeding the point of noticing 'I know this experience'. There was no distraction to the clarity of the recognition, and perhaps the recognition seems mundane, but looking and seeing what is the case is what the meditation is.

With that being said, do we understand what it is to look and see, and see how that is different to seeking something that isn't here now, but we hope to find someday? I hope we do, because that seeking need stop for the seeing to begin, for the seeking is to find something later on, and the seeing is knowing what is immediately

That is the meditation - that is the mode of observation.

I will have to proceed at a later time, so, be happy. Talk soon.

Nice thread Gem, I got that ah ha moment and it was a big one.
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