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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Meditation

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  #11  
Old 29-07-2017, 06:05 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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I don't know if readers understand, or if they find it relevant, but there is only one step at a time, and this discourse will make no sense if not followed in increments, for I don't have a blanket statement to which one may respond, so true, so true, or otherwise, disagree with entirely. If we are observant we can see the mind forming conclusions, assessing and analysing so as to determine an agreement or a disagreement, and this discourse isn't aimed to say true things which can be catgorised in that dualistic form, but rather, is aimed to inspire the observation of that, if that should happen, so you 'know what's happening with yourself'.

Of course, I only know what's happening for me, and I do not know what's happening for you. Hence, each of us is alone with this, and no other person can reveal anything about it. I can say it requires all ones attention, so no part of the person is swept into the thoughtstream, but is wholly aware of thought's movement.

This does not involve the concentration on any object, and it does not involve controlling the mind in any way. It is only the awareness of what is, as it is, in the way you notice it to be. What I find remarkable is, conscious awareness of one's mind's activity is a quietude which many people strive to attain by trying to silence their thoughts. It is quiet in the sense that the mind may move freely in your awareness without disturbing your inner peace. Then, being calm with its movements - one may accept their attention can freely go where interest takes it, and essentially, what occurs to the mind is nothing more than what takes one's interest..


Just seeing it as it comes up, changes, and passes away, is what I mean by saying no part of you is swept into the mindstream, and you wholly observe the mind's movement. The process of mental storms is just the same, and there is no impetus to get rid of it, fix it, heal it and so forth - and if such impetus comes up, we're aware of its arising. The meditation, therefore is prior to any mental actions and reactions, as one is aware of these as they occur.

If you check this, and see for yourself that you are aware of what goes on with you... That's all it is. Not because you did something to make it that way, but because that's is the way nature is.

In the spiritual community there are a lot of different things called meditation, and people undertakes these and call that activity meditation. 'Meditation' as I'm using the word is not that activity, but the awareness of that activity taking place. That's why the meditation can't begin, because it the awareness of all beginnings.
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  #12  
Old 30-07-2017, 10:53 AM
A human Being A human Being is offline
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Originally Posted by Gem
Now the first points are made, it might be good time to begin.

As this isn't an advice column, and it does not consider anything apart from what already is the case, there can be no objective of having some sort of experience apart from that which is currently unfolding, or entering a state of mind other than that of now.

I can not comment as such on that which pertains to particular individuals, experiences and states and the like, and am not attempting to bring about anything other than the experience as it is, just as it happens to be. It's irrelevant if a person is having a high spiritual experience or a mundane physical experience - for this meditation is noticing the way it is, and has nothing to do with the way anyone wants it to be, and it isn't a complicated thing in any way - it's just noticing 'this' in whatever way it is. And not because we have to try to do that, but because awareness of 'this' is already the case.

When you check to see and make sure there is a knowing of this, which is immediately apparent to anyone who does, at that moment of noticing it is this way - that passive checking and immediate realisation is the meditation - and every person already knows how to do that. It can not be taught and it takes no practice.

This frame of mind isn't a mind that is searching for something which can be found, but a mind that sees clearly what is the case. Clarity which is revealing, doubtlessly and without question, there such an instant revelation, so immediate, it's like 'of course, so what?'

This is so what: there was no thought impeding the point of noticing 'I know this experience'. There was no distraction to the clarity of the recognition, and perhaps the recognition seems mundane, but looking and seeing what is the case is what the meditation is.

With that being said, do we understand what it is to look and see, and see how that is different to seeking something that isn't here now, but we hope to find someday? I hope we do, because that seeking need stop for the seeing to begin, for the seeking is to find something later on, and the seeing is knowing what is immediately

That is the meditation - that is the mode of observation.

I will have to proceed at a later time, so, be happy. Talk soon.
It is quite a subtle point you're making, but it's an important one. The essence of meditation, as I see it, is to 'be here now', which sounds simple enough in theory, but we tend to be so geared to seeking that in practice it can feel like quite a tricky business to actually stop and be still, and find out what is actually here, right in this moment (I suspect that's because on some level we know that we're going to find discomfort, agitation, pain, and various other sensations that we'd rather not be feeling, and our seeking is often an unconscious attempt to avoid feeling them). I think it actually goes against our instincts to do that, particularly in over-stimulated western consumer societies.

Illuminating thread.
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  #13  
Old 30-07-2017, 11:48 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Originally Posted by A human Being
It is quite a subtle point you're making, but it's an important one. The essence of meditation, as I see it, is to 'be here now', which sounds simple enough in theory, but we tend to be so geared to seeking that in practice it can feel like quite a tricky business to actually stop and be still, and find out what is actually here, right in this moment (I suspect that's because on some level we know that we're going to find discomfort, agitation, pain, and various other sensations that we'd rather not be feeling, and our seeking is often an unconscious attempt to avoid feeling them). I think it actually goes against our instincts to do that, particularly in over-stimulated western consumer societies.

Illuminating thread.

In this sense, being here now is not something one does, but something one sees to be the case, like, it's simply true that this is where I exist. It is very easy to check - am I here? Yes of course - so immediately obvious and so plainly mundane, that surely there's something more to it... but there isn't. I know in the instant I look that it's the case...

Yes, people are geared to the notion that there is more to it, because it's so plain, such a no brainer, and they will go find a method to help them 'be in the moment' even though they just checked and immediately found out that they are. Perhaps the mind is asking, Why? How? What makes it thus? Well, that I have no answer for. As I said in OP, there is no knowledge here here a reader can acquire. I don't know if I'm in the moment unless I check for myself, and as soon as I do, I know that I am.

As Yoda said, 'There is no try'.

Indeed the issues of aversion to sensations/feelings are high distractions. All that reactivity disrupts the balance of the mind. In the meditation one will recognise arising in themselves, avoidance, resistance, fear, desire for special spiritual experiences... and for most people these can be overlooked, as the desire for 'something spiritual' simply compels the person to try, enlivening the volition to get rid of this feeling and go after that feeling... but 'meditation' as I use the word is to cease precisely that , and it did cease in the moment a person checked to see if they exist right now. It demonstrates what you referred to as, "stop and be still, and find out what is actually here"
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  #14  
Old 31-07-2017, 05:44 AM
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  #15  
Old 01-08-2017, 10:52 AM
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I thought I would return, because so far I haven't looked into it rightly, but only attempted to elicit a sense of what I will henceforth call 'looking'. I will have to assume people followed the thread, and I would hope, as I suggested, without the mind comparing what is said to its preconceptions in order grasp in agreement and disagreement.

Firstly, I'm not sure of the relevance of the brief comments made, and I'm assuming it is like they do in zen when the teacher says something stupid and pretends it has a profound essence, in that it doesn't. Personally I don't understand that sort of thing, but in so finding it pointless, I get the point, right?

What I speak of in the thread is not any of the things people call 'meditation'. I speak of that which can't be done, can't be taught, and can't be learned, because it already is the case and it is already known in the sense that when you look it is immediately revealed.

One may fairly ask, have we people here the capacity to look and discover the nature of things? Well I don't know, and no one does, because this is what I explore. I can't know it as an answer to a question, because then it becomes some banal lifeless knowledge - which I might say and another might believe. I don't want reduce people into compliance, docility and obedience. I want people to be alive and look, fearless in their inquiry, and find out directly by touching first hand. I don't know it, I'm not leading anyone, and if people do think I know the way, they will follow and be misled.

If people want a knower, a teacher, or something like that, this place has nothing for you, but should a person be really sincere about the truth, then it gets serious... so serious that spiritual teachers and the rest of the meditation economy starts to appear comically inane, and we are ready to look into reality without any sort of crutch to fall back on. That means we're ready, having abandoned what's comforting, to be alone in the understanding that no other is able to do the looking for us, and there is nowhere to turn for relief and satisfaction. Knowing only that this is where one takes that leap into the unknown.

If I sound harsh of tone, and perhaps appear offensive (I don't think I do), it is not that. It is just that this subject is on the nature of things... for example if I were to ask you, are you aware? Do you say, 'Yes,' because there is knowledge, or do you look to find out, and realise it momentarily? In my case, I don't have the knowledge if I am or am not aware, and my certainty is only in the moment of realisation, which has gone, and this observed truth is now and now and now and now, leaving nothing behind it which I can acquire.
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Old 02-08-2017, 09:32 AM
wstein wstein is offline
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Originally Posted by wstein
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Originally Posted by Gem
Firstly, I'm not sure of the relevance of the brief comments made, and I'm assuming it is like they do in zen when the teacher says something stupid and pretends it has a profound essence, in that it doesn't. Personally I don't understand that sort of thing, but in so finding it pointless, I get the point, right?
Speaking for my brief comment: No, not one of those stupid zen things. I was expressing what you were saying in a terse but poetic way. To be honest, its probably not any more comprehensible to those that don't already know what you are getting at than they way you are posting about it.

I'm not sure why you are being so overly careful to say so much about what your topic is not rather than what it it. Just because the 'thing' is subtle, does not mean it needs to be explained subtly.

OK, let me give a stab at being terse but not poetic, perhaps that would be more clear.

To 'be', one must not strive to do nor be forced to action by the environment.
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  #17  
Old 02-08-2017, 11:09 AM
Ground Ground is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
... Well I don't know, ...
That's it. Why your many words? Is it because you're a chatterbox?

If there is something you are certain about and you think others should know then why don't you express it? Do you fear dissent?
If there is nothing you are certain about then what's the purpose of this thread? What are you seeking? Certainty or a community that shares your uncertainty?
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  #18  
Old 02-08-2017, 02:43 PM
Gem Gem is offline
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Originally Posted by wstein
Speaking for my brief comment: No, not one of those stupid zen things. I was expressing what you were saying in a terse but poetic way. To be honest, its probably not any more comprehensible to those that don't already know what you are getting at than they way you are posting about it.

I'm not sure why you are being so overly careful to say so much about what your topic is not rather than what it it. Just because the 'thing' is subtle, does not mean it needs to be explained subtly.

OK, let me give a stab at being terse but not poetic, perhaps that would be more clear.

To 'be', one must not strive to do nor be forced to action by the environment.

Oh, I thought it was a zen type thing, and I thought I got it in that I didn't, but as it turns out I didn't get it... really teehee.

People need to understand that as a person I'm highly complex, and I know how to go about things in my way, and I'm also pretty serious, though that makes me quite comical, I have to admit, but I only say so because I seem to have become the subject of curiosity... seemingly... , but lets not be distracted, because what is the case for me has nothing to do with what I talk about here, as I can't do anything for anyone, as I already explained.
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Old 02-08-2017, 03:11 PM
Gem Gem is offline
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Firstly, I won't bother with the 20 question drill Ground's post, because the questions are not sincere inquiries. They present as a challenge, they are loaded and contain double binds; and we don't want to sidetrack into a lot of idiocy, because this is a serious subject.

Each post is an increment, and this is never going to arrive at an answer, never come to a conclusion, so any feeling of impatience - that 'get to the point' - will not be fulfilled, as no point will be reached.

Perhaps the minds of readers have read previous posts, and either followed the discourse or they didn't, but if they did, and I said it well enough, we now have a sense of what is meant by 'looking' - which is not seeking - and you might notice if you looked, being prompted by the examples in the previous posts, that seeking stopped in the moment looking started.

That's as much as I can say now, but if we've understood 'looking' then we should proceed - because it isn't simple and it is complicated - to start where it begins and go through each step without missing any one.

I know people don't write in this way, and people aren't used to it, and perhaps I should post in tweet fashion to appease the average attention span, but meditation requires more attention than that of a goldfish, and this isn't supposed to be easy. The way I like to say it is, give it all you have, because it takes all you've got.
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Old 02-08-2017, 04:54 PM
peteyzen peteyzen is offline
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I dont know if this is on topic or not, but I remember a krishnamurti quote where he was talking about looking at a mountain for the first time and not commenting or thinking but simply being struck by a sense of awe and in recognising the sense of awe something was lost and, later, in trying to re visit that sense of awe the simple purity of the original awe could never be found.
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