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  #11  
Old 13-06-2017, 11:18 AM
Baile Baile is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by organic born
Beliefs are the surface representation of inner assumptions
You speak of beliefs, and I agree. You never seem to mention eternal truth, and I keep pointing that out. Two different things.

God is a belief-specific concept.
Heaven and hell are belief-specific concepts.
Spirit is eternal truth.
The soul is eternal truth.

Human descriptions commonly associated with the concept "God" can be likened to describing the ocean as a puddle of liquid. Why? Because the human being stands on the seashore and looks out. That's what beliefs are: standing on the outside and apart from while looking at. No real tactile relationship to the thing. And from that perspective s/he sees a body of water or something that looks like it might be water (that's the assumption given that's what s/he has been taught about oceans). And it appears smallish... same as a large puddle would appear up-close.

But now get in a boat and start motoring or sailing for days and weeks until you've maybe reached mid-ocean. Now it's no longer a puddle. Rather, it has become the thing that is everything. It has become that which is all-encompassing, and absolute; the one singular reality. Ocean and ocean and ocean. It exists this way, and that way, and in every direction you turn. That is Spirit. Much different from human beings' descriptions of God.

It is said God is unknowable. Most interpret that as, "Yes, I understand God is indeed that immense. But I can still know God." No, what that's really saying is whenever the human being imagines God, they are only ever conjuring up in their minds a puddle-sized perspective-distortion of the thing. What it actually means is this: Everything Exists. In bolded text because it's that important an understanding. There is nothing in this Existing Thing that can be separated out from it. Human understanding that imagines something as being separate from this Everything -- a God that created all this, as one example -- is puddle-perspective and puddle-understanding.

The reason many are stuck in this puddle-perspective is because they cannot grasp the idea of something Existing, in and of itself. Just. Existing. Having no beginning. And no end. Nothing that created it, because it always was. Nothing that can or will ever destroy it, because it cannot not be. The unknowable is Everything That Is, and that awaits creative expression via the conscious impulse. And here's a mighty question: Why would that which is Everything, require creative expression? What's to create if it's already Everything? The answer has to do with relative truth versus absolute truth. But if one doesn't believe in relative truth and absolute truth and/or eternal truths of any kind, then that's a question that will probably go unanswered for them.

Last edited by Baile : 13-06-2017 at 03:43 PM.
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  #12  
Old 13-06-2017, 11:21 AM
Baile Baile is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARDAV70
Yet, have we really learned all there is to know about DNA?
One truth about DNA we know for sure: It's a manifestation of physical-material reality. I suppose it comes down to how much credence one gives to the phenomena of the temporal physical-material realm in relation to the eternal soul-spiritual. Given that physical-material reality ceases to exist from time to time -- it is temporal after all -- that indicates, to me anyway, that the relevant truth is in that which is eternal. The soul-spiritual in other words, and not the physical-material.

That's not to say there is nothing of value in the question of DNA. But for me it's never a physical-material oriented question that I seek to answer. I ask my questions from a soul-spiritual perspective, in order to recognize and understand how the eternal soul-spiritual finds its expression the temporal physical-material. In other words, it's not about DNA; it's about what DNA is reflecting as pertinent truth regarding eternal spirit and the soul's evolution. Every expression of physical-material reality can be seen and understood as eternal spirit manifesting in this or that particular form, specifically and exclusively for the purpose and benefit of our collective human soul-evolution journey.

Last edited by Baile : 13-06-2017 at 12:36 PM.
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  #13  
Old 13-06-2017, 12:58 PM
Baile Baile is offline
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There is one stream of Aquarian Age investigation that has to do with a complete rejection of anything that remotely reeks of -- not just religious -- but spiritual as well. It's intellectual-based thinking, taken to one particular conceptualization-extreme... like a pendulum that has swung all the way over, away from the other extreme of emotion-based religious belief. It's science essentially; the yang to religion's yin. Breaking down the physical-material into sub-atomic patterns, in the exact same way the other belief-extreme looks heavenward to create its hierarchical blueprint. And many bow to science as the new guru just like people kiss the ring on the church father's hand.

I'm a middle path person. I look beyond the illusion that is both emotion-based belief and intellect-based knowledge. Both serve a purpose, and they're not bad or inappropriate certainly. But following one or the other exclusively is illusion, and is not the path to wisdom. As with all things in life, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. And in the middle is the reality of Spirit. Spirit is the source of every truth the human being investigates. Everything emanates from that Spirit center; are merely manifestations and reflections of eternal Spirit truth. Emotional belief and intellectual knowing are truth-shadows so to speak. Half-truths at best.

Someone in another thread has been discussing chemical reaction as it relates to how life began. An innocuous observation. But then he added, "And next comes the question of how the human being then arose from all this." I replied and pointed out he was essentially identifying that nails are pounded into wood by the hammer (an innocuous observation). But that he was forgetting someone or something had to swing the hammer first, in order to pound those nails. He didn't understand what I was getting at. Hammers and nails do not suddenly appear out of thin air and start interacting with each other. Examine the reality of hammers and nails, sure. But not as the cause of life. Rather, as the effect and result of whatever the Spirit impulse was that willed them into physical-material being.

Last edited by Baile : 13-06-2017 at 02:34 PM.
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  #14  
Old 13-06-2017, 03:22 PM
davidsun davidsun is online now
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Some conceptual 'tools' for (more) conscious living:

- We, you and I and everyone and everything else, is a locally living time-space-body 'finger' on the everywhere-n-everywhen present 'hand' of God, or God's 'Life'.

- our personal consciousnesses and beings are peep-holes and fire-hoses through which 'God' ex-peer-iences and ex-press-es aspects of the Flow said Life's Creation.

- the only choice we personally have as far as I can see, is whether to consciously think, feel, believe and respond to what we ex-peer-ience as though we are really separate or separately autonomous beings or consciously think, feel, believe and respond to what we ex-peer-ience as though we are connected/interwoven aspects of said (hand of) Life.

Either way, our thoughts, feelings, beliefs and (so) our responses will only focus on and what we are (at that point) 'geared' (by said Life) to think, feel, believe and respond to. ("I am the vine, ye are the branches: ... without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5; "I am the Seed of all being, ... No creature moving or unmoving can live without Me." The Bhagavad Gita, Ch.10)

'Revelations' in this regard are bound to keep on 'expanding' as we grow (learn? and develop greater capabilities in terms of knowledge, love and power) from our ex-peer-iences.

All one's 'theories' (beliefs) are therefore mere evolutionary 'stages' on the 'path' of consciousness's 'evolution' - I dare say, the Consciousness of All That Is (the hand!) is bound to evolve as well as It too 'learns' though us (fingers). I can't see how this 'theory' can change - it strikes me as being so 'complete' - but it well may of course.

Vive la Mystere!
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  #15  
Old 14-06-2017, 08:52 PM
MARDAV70 MARDAV70 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baile
One truth about DNA we know for sure: It's a manifestation of physical-material reality. I suppose it comes down to how much credence one gives to the phenomena of the temporal physical-material realm in relation to the eternal soul-spiritual. Given that physical-material reality ceases to exist from time to time -- it is temporal after all -- that indicates, to me anyway, that the relevant truth is in that which is eternal. The soul-spiritual in other words, and not the physical-material.

That's not to say there is nothing of value in the question of DNA. But for me it's never a physical-material oriented question that I seek to answer. I ask my questions from a soul-spiritual perspective, in order to recognize and understand how the eternal soul-spiritual finds its expression the temporal physical-material. In other words, it's not about DNA; it's about what DNA is reflecting as pertinent truth regarding eternal spirit and the soul's evolution. Every expression of physical-material reality can be seen and understood as eternal spirit manifesting in this or that particular form, specifically and exclusively for the purpose and benefit of our collective human soul-evolution journey.

Well, that's ultimately me, too. Yet while I'm here in this plane I can't help but wonder what the purpose of it all really is. Science is reliable in this "physical" universe, but this universe isn't the reality of existence (as per my personal view)...so after all, does it really even matter? I suppose so, in this "physical world"...but (perhaps?) not in that place where consciousness exists without the ego.
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  #16  
Old 14-06-2017, 09:46 PM
davidsun davidsun is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARDAV70
Well, that's ultimately me, too. Yet while I'm here in this plane I can't help but wonder what the purpose of it all really is. Science is reliable in this "physical" universe, but this universe isn't the reality of existence (as per my personal view)...so after all, does it really even matter? I suppose so, in this "physical world"...but (perhaps?) not in that place where consciousness exists without the ego.
From Ch.2 of the book I wrote, answering your question, among many others, I think (click http://davidsundom.weebly.com/upload...godspeak2k.pdf for a free pdf copy):

Quote:
Electromagnetic and nuclear interactions, where repulsion occurs as well, are additionally revealing. Ongoing scientific investigation has led us to understand the fact that sense perceptions are basically ‘gross’ acknowledgments, and that everything is fundamentally a wave-form and nothing is actually solid at core. So, besides there being no substantive means to constitutionally link those bodies which form conglomerates, there is no real ‘boundary’ that so-called objects bump into when they apparently bounce off one another. The only inference this permits, if one has enough courage and faith in Life not to invent extrinsic agency as a false postulate, is that the movements that bodies make and the stations they take result from the impulses and choices of discerning, autogenic ‘interiors’.

The direction and purpose of such inherent power and intentionality can be deduced from the cumulation and trend of results which have so far occurred. Progressively, the creative essence of Being has conspired to form an array of what, because of our material orientation, we’ve called ‘sub-atomic particles’; these have interacted and engaged in such ways as to produce ‘electrons’, ‘protons’ and ‘neutrons’ which, in turn, have combined to create the various ‘atoms’ and ‘molecules’ we have become familiar with; and these, through more concerted effort, have coalesced into cellular and multi-cellular units, in stages, generating ever more complex aggregations of body,a mind and spirit—the whole hierarchy and procession we know as Life.

In ascending sequence, with prior developments integrated and built upon, ‘bodies’ have become more coordinated, ‘spirits’ more potent, ‘minds’ more perceptive, resident Intelligence more designful and adept. Even what some call ‘simple’ single-celled organisms are architectural masters capable of cognizing, culling and compiling environ*mental ingredients so as to reproduce themselves and further their particular line of development. Each succeeding level of integration further demonstrates the aim of the impetus inherent within all being—that is, to seek and establish cooperative affiliation with suitable others in order to enhance creativity and increase the degree of intelligent actualization.

Life’s evolutionary accomplishments in such pursuit are extremely varied in range and infinitely diverse; and, because of the involuted nature of their interconnectedness and interdependence, the ways in which its many forms and levels are related cannot be simply stated. Generally speaking, however, one might say that ‘lesser’ combinations of body, mind and spirit tend to be incorporated by, and serve to sustain, those more comprehensively developed. With their more energized spirits, more mobile bodies and more dimensional minds, for example, animals prevail over vegetation for the most part; and the more capable among them prevail over the rest.

Members of our species stand at the peak of a fantastic living pyramid, borne by the earth and sustained by energy continually streaming from the sun. Cresting a progression that has taken place over aeons and ages, we have emerged ascendant, capable of much more than great physical dexterity and coordination. Our laughter and our tears demonstrate, in dimensions of Mind and Spirit, how far beyond its other earthly manifestations Intelligence has developed in the process of becoming human.
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  #17  
Old 15-06-2017, 04:36 AM
MARDAV70 MARDAV70 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsun
From Ch.2 of the book I wrote, answering your question, among many others, I think (click http://davidsundom.weebly.com/upload...godspeak2k.pdf for a free pdf copy):
Thank you, davidsun. Well written, and I totally agree. Where our paths may divide is that this is all observance of our physical universe. Not than I'm pooh-poohing science. On the contrary...I love science and the gifts of knowledge those who observe and study all in our universe have given us, but what about that other place where consciousness exists beyond the physical? That, which can't be observed? I only wondered this after having a near death experience, until that time believing when we die, it's the end of us...what's left eventually becomes star dust. And in the observable universe, yes, that's unquestionably true.
The atom is 99.999999 percent "nothing" (so I've read). Is it really? Is there even such a thing as "nothing"? Simply, it makes sense to me we just don't understand the "nothingness" of the atom yet. When/if we do (and I think some day we will) discover what it is, then we'll be getting somewhere.

So, davidsun, you may not agree with me, and that's okay. If I understand you correctly you believe the physical and ethereal are in the same space/existence. I respect that, but I don't believe it...simply because of my NDE. That doesn't make me wiser or smarter (especially not in physics or biology or any other science), it only has caused me to question and/or give my side in hopes of hearing from others who've also had such experience.
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  #18  
Old 15-06-2017, 04:43 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by organic born
I was responding to a post in another thread and was finally able to put into words something that I've been mulling over for some time. I wanted to make a separate thread specifically on this since it's a possibility that's not normally considered. :)



I suspect that this is only a part of the story while much of what is actually occurring is really much closer to home.

We tend to take this leap, we say "us here" (referring to the sense of normality that daily defines our experience) and then god "there" or "within" or "beyond ego". It's assumed that when we enter a bliss state that somehow this is relevant to a god (which incidentally is a god of our own making and expectation).

So, there is our experience, and then there is god. What if, perhaps, that this isn't the case?

Our conscious self is incredibly limited, by design, in order to track and maintain our moving connection with our environment. Our conscious self has evolved as a navigator, of sorts, in order help us survive within a continually shifting set of complex variables. Much of the processing that goes on in our brain is done as a background operation. We are not consciously aware of the intensity that's maintained by our bodies awareness of itself. This is intentional. It would be essentially impossible for us to move even an inch if we were privy to the feedback from every nerve in our body, if every smell were to dominate our attention, if to move every muscle was a product of conscious thought, we would be swamped if all of what our body was exposed to was prominent to our immediate attention.

And yet there's an aspect of our body that is still monitoring these details. Billions of streams of data is being processed by highly complex censoring throughout our overall biological system. If all is well then none of this is brought to our attention, but should there be an issue we'll be specifically and consciously informed. It's too hot, it's too cold, our body just got cut in this one place, the ground is uneven we need to be consciously involved so we can navigate this successfully, there was a rustle in the woods could this be a lion?

But unless there's a good reason for attuning our attention this process of monitoring remains a background operation.

By comparison, the mind that is monitoring our overall condition is incredibly intense, by a massive degree, in relation to the amount of resources that are dedicated to our conscious ability to think. The numbers are staggering. In computer terms, we consciously process only about 4 megs a second while our unconscious self is trucking along as high as 400 billion bits of info a second (the number keeps going up as our research improves). So this means, that just outside of our conscious ability to perceive is a roaring set of activity that's far beyond our conscious ability to imagine.

So what would happen should we tap into this process? If our conscious self was able to shift just a little and tune-into this processor of almost infinitely more complex operation. It would feel like we'd just stepped into a most intense house of god. Consciously we'd be lost to the complexity. We'd be overwhelmed by the manor in which everything combined, we'd be humbled by how much we don't know or could keep up with. We would feel we're in the presence of "god".

So what if, what if all these thoughts about a deity is not really "out there" at all, but Right Here? What if we've projected a bodily internal process onto an image of godliness while all along it's "in-house".

Wouldn't that be a hoot. What if we've been worshiping upon far, and projecting way out there, an actual internal process that's right at our own door?
Very wise insight.

I asked "God" the same questions the other day, because everybody seemed content and blissful within their own little private "I AM" experiences, while that was just way too confining for me in my whole "Everything IS" experiences... I sought to understand the difference between these two perspectives, so I decided to ask the Universe, of course.

The answer:

"I AM" is the whole association between the mind and thought processes - known as the Manomaya Kosha with the individual, embodied soul, known as the Jivatman.

Bliss is experienced as a result, but it's still within limitation of the Self and that existential awareness.

"Everything IS" is the whole association between the heart, all the emotions of the "bliss sheath" known as the Anandamaya Kosha with the 'Oversoul' or 'Divine soul' or 'God consciousness' however you like to describe it...that Soul is known as Paramatman.

Jivatman or the embodied soul is only a shadow of Paramatman or the Oversoul.

In the awareness of Paramatman through the Anandamaya Kosha, bliss is also experienced, but it is whole and inclusive without any ego or any notion of Self...it becomes the process of 'No-Self' because ego is intrinsically individuised through the very nature of the "I AM" awareness.

This is why I had so many problems trying to understand those who would say to me "you are God" when I understood God to be everything I am NOT...it's the same principle but with totally different outcomes.

Koshas:
http://www.decodinghinduism.com/2014...man-being.html

http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/fund/fund-18a.gif

Last edited by Shivani Devi : 15-06-2017 at 05:51 AM.
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  #19  
Old 15-06-2017, 01:16 PM
davidsun davidsun is online now
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Originally Posted by MARDAV70
So, davidsun, you may not agree with me, and that's okay. If I understand you correctly you believe the physical and ethereal are in the same space/existence. I respect that, but I don't believe it...simply because of my NDE. That doesn't make me wiser or smarter (especially not in physics or biology or any other science), it only has caused me to question and/or give my side in hopes of hearing from others who've also had such experience.
It's all (multidimensionally) One. SPIRIT -- you, I, we -- is here, in this often confusing, frustrating setting, for a reason. THAT is what I was talking about. The 'good news' (for people who think here is awful or meaningless) is that there is something 'beyond' 'this' which 'this' learning opportunity for 'evolution' (i.e. change!) provides us with, which plain ol' 'immortality' just by itself doesn't.

P.S. I haven't personally experienced what is called an NDE. But I have no doubt whatsoever of the meaning-full-ness and wonder-full-ness of Life, both the kind (of Life) 'beyond' 'this' and the kind that 'this' is life ensconced (dreamed?) 'in'.
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Old 15-06-2017, 01:23 PM
davidsun davidsun is online now
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I 'see' you are in full 'arrival' mode, Nec!

Yahoo!!!!!
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