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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Taoism

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  #1  
Old 20-05-2017, 02:36 AM
Sonolil Sonolil is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 30
 
Skepticism

So I have not shared this with anyone as of yet, but I finally decided it's time to bounce this idea off of the net.

I have an extremely serious ambivalent relationship towards Taoism.
I have little idea where to start so I'll just start off with some of the questions bugging the mind.


1. If Tao cannot be spoken of, why speak?

If Tao that can be named is not Tao, then is Tao really Tao?
And anything that is written in Tao-de-ching, what of it?

If it's meaningless then what are the poems for?



2. What is natural?

Is the world really separate into natural and unnatural?
Isn't the universe nature itself?
Isn't everything in the world, all materials and concepts, all spirits and desires, all part of nature itself no matter how ugly it seems?

Are humans and civilization not part of nature?
Are grey cubes worthless against green fractals?



3. But then why no good and evil?

Is it bad to pursue good over evil?
Isn't it inevitable?

Is darkness darkness or light?
Is light light or darkness?

Does music really dull the senses?
Is going down really going up?


4. Yin and Yang?

Is life really dual?
Conversely, is duality actually bad?

Are all dichotomies equal?
Do they all need to be balanced?
Isn't good good and evil evil?
Isn't purity just as important as balance?
Sometimes isn't it important that
one force dominates and destroys the other?

Do all things really fall neatly into yin and yang categories?
Are they all related?
Does left and right have anything to do with evil and good?
In color schemes, can CMYK fall into yin-yang categories?

If red fire is yang and blue water yin, then why is hot fire blue?
Why do we divide sexless things and spirit into male and female?
Is mountain male or female? Is sky? Is the sun?

Aren't these mere symbols?
Do they reflect reality?



5. Why?

What led the old one to write such things?
Why do we hold onto it as true?

Why did he try to explain the inexplicable?

Is the book always true? Is it always false?
Is it virtue to follow what is in the poems?
As opposed to vice?
But then that divides virtue and vice..?

Why explain what can't be explained?


Am why am I asking this?

What do I possibly gain from asking these unanswerable questions?
Why am I doing this? What leads me to do this?
Is it necessary? Is it laziness? Is it futility? Is this part of my path?

Am I for Tao or against it?
Am I still part of Tao despite all this thinking?

Actually why am I not thinking?
Why don't I really care?

Do I care?

Do I care if any of you answer? Do I care if none?
Do I care if this is evil or good?



If I don't need the answers then why am I asking these?


And why am I finally at peace?...
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  #2  
Old 20-05-2017, 04:14 AM
FallingLeaves FallingLeaves is online now
Master
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,700
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonolil
So I have not shared this with anyone as of yet, but I finally decided it's time to bounce this idea off of the net.

well i will waste my time answering!
Quote:

I have an extremely serious ambivalent relationship towards Taoism.
how daoist of you!
Quote:
I have little idea where to start so I'll just start off with some of the questions bugging the mind.


1. If Tao cannot be spoken of, why speak?
why do birds sing?
Quote:

If Tao that can be named is not Tao, then is Tao really Tao?
is my TV the word TV?
Quote:
And anything that is written in Tao-de-ching, what of it?
why do birds sing?
Quote:

If it's meaningless then what are the poems for?
who said tao had to lack meaning?
and who said poems had to be there for some reason?
Quote:



2. What is natural?

Is the world really separate into natural and unnatural?
there was an observation that some things seem 'easier' than others and we are stuck doing very hard things that we often 'say' we don't like. That is really all there is to it.
Quote:

Isn't the universe nature itself?
Isn't everything in the world, all materials and concepts, all spirits and desires, all part of nature itself no matter how ugly it seems?
exactly the point of tao
Quote:

Are humans and civilization not part of nature?
Are grey cubes worthless against green fractals?



3. But then why no good and evil?
it is a 'miss' of taoism to believe you can wish it away.
Quote:

Is it bad to pursue good over evil?
Isn't it inevitable?
yeah, but as a result so is 'death'
Quote:

Is darkness darkness or light?
Is light light or darkness?
depends on what you want to see
Quote:


Does music really dull the senses?
Is going down really going up?
depends on what you want to do
Quote:


4. Yin and Yang?

Is life really dual?
I'm not sure where this came from. Maybe I am too old now...
Quote:

Conversely, is duality actually bad?
very daoist of you
Quote:

Are all dichotomies equal?
Do they all need to be balanced?
Isn't good good and evil evil?
Isn't purity just as important as balance?
Sometimes isn't it important that
one force dominates and destroys the other?
you can call a mouse a cat if you want, but that doesn't change the fact that it is a mouse.
Quote:


Do all things really fall neatly into yin and yang categories?
Are they all related?

male = put things out, female = take things in. Most things can be looked at one way, the other, or both at the same time :) But there is a third place talked about as well, the place between.
Quote:

Does left and right have anything to do with evil and good?
left is often called evil and right good... as left is often called female and right male, but really they are unrelated other than what people want to call them.
Quote:


In color schemes, can CMYK fall into yin-yang categories?
I dunno. That is beyond my knowing. I do know that the connotations we put with the colors can.
Quote:


If red fire is yang and blue water yin, then why is hot fire blue?
why do you think there has to be a clear separation between things?
Quote:


Why do we divide sexless things and spirit into male and female?
Is mountain male or female? Is sky? Is the sun?

Aren't these mere symbols?
Do they reflect reality?
aren't words mere symbols?
Do they reflect reality?
Quote:


5. Why?

What led the old one to write such things?
supposedly, someone bothered him enough that it was easier to write on the way out the door, than not.
Quote:

Why do we hold onto it as true?
it is like a mirror, people see themselves and sometimes more
people like to see themselves and sometimes more
Quote:


Why did he try to explain the inexplicable?
maybe it was more like... pointing the finger.
Quote:


Is the book always true? Is it always false?
is anything always something other than what it is?
Quote:


Is it virtue to follow what is in the poems?
As opposed to vice?
But then that divides virtue and vice..?
virtue doesn't mean 'doing the right thing according to what people think'. Virtue means finding the path to the way and walking it until you are ready to get tired of paths and strike off through the jungle on your own.
Quote:


Why explain what can't be explained?
why not?
Quote:



Am why am I asking this?
why not?
Quote:


What do I possibly gain from asking these unanswerable questions?
Why am I doing this? What leads me to do this?
Is it necessary? Is it laziness? Is it futility? Is this part of my path?
sometimes, it is enough just to do things and see what comes of them
Quote:


Am I for Tao or against it?
are you for 'air' or against it? Or something else entirely?
Quote:


Am I still part of Tao despite all this thinking?
well how could you not be?
Quote:


Actually why am I not thinking?
Why don't I really care?

Do I care?

Do I care if any of you answer? Do I care if none?
Do I care if this is evil or good?



If I don't need the answers then why am I asking these?
why do birds sing?
Quote:



And why am I finally at peace?...

lucky you. I'm so very envious!
__________________

The sacred path is such that the learned will never be able to find it. And the unlearned will not seek, saying to themselves 'we are not learned'.

To get from a high peak to an even higher peak, one starts by traveling down.

“To be truly ignorant, be content with your own knowledge.” ― Zhuangzi
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  #3  
Old 24-05-2017, 04:55 AM
winter light winter light is offline
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Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 56
 
Epic posting. I feel the Tao is complete.
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  #4  
Old 21-06-2017, 10:12 PM
HereAndNow HereAndNow is offline
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Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Near the North Star and North Pole
Posts: 77
  HereAndNow's Avatar
Beautiful post, Sonolil!
Once you have asked all the questions,
and given up on trying to get rational answers,
then there is peace.
The flow of Tao is beyond concepts, questions and answers.
Once we understand it we see the Tao.
That's what the sages have been pointing their finger towards.
Why to rise the finger? Why not?
When you see the Tao the finger rises by itself when needed.
Without any questions :)
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  #5  
Old 27-07-2017, 05:11 PM
ketzer ketzer is offline
Pathfinder
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 59
 
The Tao Te Ching is a book that the first time I read it I shook my head at such inexplicable gibberish.
Despite this, something has drawn me back to it again and again over the years.
Each time I come back, I find it makes more and more sense, yet I am no closer to being able to find words to explain it to anyone else, nor able to capture it in thought to myself. Mercifully, it starts out with a warning that you will find this to be the case, else I might wreak my brain trying. In this way, it is similar to Zen. It is said that Zen is not the moon, rather it is the finger pointing to the moon. No one can show you the moon, you must see it for yourself. If you do see the moon, you will find you cannot show it to anyone else either. You can point and they may or may not see it. So it is with the Tao as well. Many have tried to interpret it for others, but IMO all have failed, yet somehow many come to feel they understand it’s wisdom and beauty, even if only a little bit better. I expect ambivalence is an appropriate and good way to approach it, that way you don’t carve your block before you see all it could contain.




Quote:
“Wisdom cannot be imparted. Wisdom that a wise man attempts to impart always sounds like foolishness to someone else ... Knowledge can be communicated, but not wisdom. One can find it, live it, do wonders through it, but one cannot communicate and teach it.”
― Hermann Hesse, Siddhartha
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