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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Science & Spirituality

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  #21  
Old 21-05-2017, 03:32 PM
organic born organic born is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnate
My understanding of awakening takes a different approach; I'm mostly explaining this to expand on the semantic differences between our understandings of the term.

We previously held a much higher spiritual position; similar to angels. We experienced a fall a long time ago, that resulted in us losing our connection to the Source (or Light, or God.. or however you wanted to see it). By 'awakening' we're regaining the memories we had in the past.. reconnecting to the Light, and remembering a great many spiritual truths (wisdom) and techniques. At this stage, learning is no longer necessary.. there is no need to study, because knowledge of all things physical will be readily available.
(I want to preface this response with the observation that this is me mostly working out my own experience with being religiously programed in my early years)

Is this truly the case? Is this really what happened? In the last 40 years or so I've read and heard so many version of what happened to us as soul-based entities and they usually reflect some feeling that we've been detrimentally robbed of our birthright. I think it's important that we focus on this trend because such imaginings tend to frame the way we think about this current experience.

Notice how such stories tend to mirror the kinds of religious conditioning that took hold some 2000 years ago. The great fall, then the savior, good and evil battling it out with us being carried by the current. If not for this we would all be magnificently magically inclined. If we could just think and behave in some certain way then the magical days of yore would return.

Such stories are enticing, since living a physical life is a disturbing affair in which we continually teeter over one abyss or another (in many cases abysses of our own making)

I'm not faulting you specifically for such things, since these habits of viewing life is well embedded in our upbringing, but I do feel it's important to point out how these stories affect how we feel about the present.

They establish us as victims within a natural setting. It turns our ability to "think" against ourselves. It semantically contains our imagination, and structurally restricts our ability to perceive. It also separates us from nature under the idea that our punishment is to be here in this way. While there's nothing to really indicate that any of this actually occurred.

(sorry about going there, but this stuff needs to be culturally, emotionally and intuitively looked at real closely)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnate
My mother had progressed a fair way along this path, and had access to all languages; she could speak any/every language. We'd occasionally play a game where we'd pick a language and have her speak a sentence or two in that language.. even rare languages were spoken fluently without hesitation. And this example is only one portion of what 'awakening' means.

What was your mother like in general? Was she relaxed overall and did she integrate with the things that surrounded her? Here ability to access languages is suggestive of something much deeper and more cooperative in nature. We've been conditioned to think that we're structurally narrow and contained. Intuitively it appears that your mother was able to poke through some of this conditioning in a most unique way! :)
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  #22  
Old 21-05-2017, 11:09 PM
FallingLeaves FallingLeaves is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by organic born
I completely understand what you're saying. :)

And this is what I like about the "natural" language of organic interaction. As I work with the soil and encourage an environment that is helpful to the plants that I'm growing I'm adapting to the language of nature. Such things are not open to interpretation in a semantic sense. Nature responds to a dance that's been in play for billions of years, with a syntax that's well understood by the players. While we humans float about with "ideas about things" and give our "imaginings" precedence over the long-enduring natural rhythms. As a result we are not "grounded". Which leaves us attempting to construct our experience around ideas without viable roots.

We've become disembodied merchants of dream-thought, where our ideas seem more important that the reality that confronts us. Is it any wonder that we're so generally confused?!

Funny thing though is we think we are anything BUT confused. We think we have a handle on everything! Because we would rather think 'positive', happy thoughts about what we can get through our efforts than thoughts that are more in line with what we DO get when we rest and aren't messing with things. And positive thoughts wouldn't allow us to perform a proper self-assessment because they always want to paint pictures in the best light.... vanity.... but noone can see that because they want to paint a good picture of that too! Painting ourselves as vain is not considered a positive thing to do so we won't even explore whether or not it might be true!
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  #23  
Old 22-05-2017, 07:34 PM
organic born organic born is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FallingLeaves
Funny thing though is we think we are anything BUT confused. We think we have a handle on everything! Because we would rather think 'positive', happy thoughts about what we can get through our efforts than thoughts that are more in line with what we DO get when we rest and aren't messing with things. And positive thoughts wouldn't allow us to perform a proper self-assessment because they always want to paint pictures in the best light.... vanity.... but noone can see that because they want to paint a good picture of that too! Painting ourselves as vain is not considered a positive thing to do so we won't even explore whether or not it might be true!

Here's a couple of books you may enjoy:

The Antidote: Happiness for People Who Can't Stand Positive Thinking by Oliver Burkeman

And

Curse of the High IQ by Aaron Clarey

Aaron's book is mostly a fun little diatribe of the conundrum involved in being a highly-observant person, in daily company with those who don't extend themselves much. Now the measurement of IQ is subject to controversy but the gap between those who invest themselves and those who don't is objectively noticeable.

Interestingly enough there are many who employ positive thinking in order to maintain the status quo. The last thing I'm willing to entertain is an all-positive attitude over a lifestyle thats dysfunctional. I suspect that most on this forum are being motivated by the nudging of a higher IQ, and feel somewhat alone with such, considering the orientation of the folks that surround them in person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FallingLeaves
Funny thing though is we think we are anything BUT confused. We think we have a handle on everything!

Now oddly enough our brains are designed to do just that! For millions of years our species were mostly nomadic with only immediate stimulus to draw their conclusions from. Our bodies are counting on our observations and opinions to be a reflection of these historic surroundings. As we moved into larger communities we were stuck with providing a cultural stream of interaction. We needed a mental template in order to provide a relative/cultural structure for everyone to relate to. So now our attention was steadily removed from our tactile environment and relocated into what we're being oriented to intellectually/culturally.

Such defining has actually gotten so disjointed that we can now destroy the health of our body and the over-all balance of natural involvements, and not even realize we're doing so. People can watch their health deteriorate by filling it with non-nutrient content and watch a continuous stream of species going extinct, while thinking it has nothing at all to do with their involvement.

If we adhere strictly to the promptings of disembodied thought we are unavoidably subject to all sorts of unintended consequences. So the need to reconnect with our natural heritage, of natural-involvement, would be a wise direction to move in as an antidote to such ignorance.

Now to ~"get this"~ within a culture that takes it cues from TV, and the advertisers that deeply sway it's content, you will likely run counter to the cultural paradigm at-large. The individuals that surround us are still "certain" about their conclusions. In much the same way that our ancestors were, only now, most of our thinking is contrived.
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  #24  
Old 23-05-2017, 06:42 AM
Carnate Carnate is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by organic born
Is this truly the case? Is this really what happened? In the last 40 years or so I've read and heard so many version of what happened to us as soul-based entities and they usually reflect some feeling that we've been detrimentally robbed of our birthright. I think it's important that we focus on this trend because such imaginings tend to frame the way we think about this current experience.

...

Such stories are enticing, since living a physical life is a disturbing affair in which we continually teeter over one abyss or another (in many cases abysses of our own making)
This is too large a topic to go into detail here. And it should be read as a personal belief based on a wide range of information/knowledge I've gathered.. you'll be able to find your own truth (that sits well with you).

Rather than rewrite everything, I'll direct you to another thread that covers this in some detail (and has some links that are worth looking at). http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...d.php?t=112746

Quote:
Originally Posted by organic born
While there's nothing to really indicate that any of this actually occurred.
There are a lot of reminders of what's happened. I tried finding a specific video that goes over various temples and the different building techniques that were used, but came up empty. Here are some others.. however, they do have that 'conspiracy theory' ring to them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKfGC3P9KoQ&t=320s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGwTT1Ff8b8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VUmtCLePL8

Quote:
Originally Posted by organic born
What was your mother like in general? Was she relaxed overall and did she integrate with the things that surrounded her? Here ability to access languages is suggestive of something much deeper and more cooperative in nature. We've been conditioned to think that we're structurally narrow and contained. Intuitively it appears that your mother was able to poke through some of this conditioning in a most unique way! :)
I've only met a few people like her. She didn't have any trouble fitting in.. it seemed natural for her, wherever she went. I know it's going to seem like boasting a bit (and I am a bit biased..), but she was well known and respected in many circles. She helped people regardless of station; from the lowest to the highest. She provided free assistance to those that couldn't afford it, and had regular/numerous invitations to visit high ranking officials and leaders in various countries to provide advice. When she passed away, we had ceremonies in a lot of different locations so people could pay their respects. The one I attended (which wasn't where she was living at the time) was packed, with people spilling out into the streets. Each one had a personal story of how my mother had a positive impact on their life. For a long time, I had people stop me on the street because they recognised me in relation to knowing her.

I think it goes without saying that I miss her being here.
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  #25  
Old 24-05-2017, 05:23 AM
Ahriman Ahriman is offline
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Do you guys think enlightenment and science can only be joined through a collective human effort? Or do you think it can happen in a person's head and become his/her new reality? Another possibility is that people are born with the knowledge of good and evil, AKA science. I think only the Anti Christ will incarnate with full knowledge of good and evil.
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  #26  
Old 24-05-2017, 03:11 PM
Carnate Carnate is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahriman
Do you guys think enlightenment and science can only be joined through a collective human effort? Or do you think it can happen in a person's head and become his/her new reality? Another possibility is that people are born with the knowledge of good and evil, AKA science. I think only the Anti Christ will incarnate with full knowledge of good and evil.
Science and spirituality will likely co-exist at some point.. but I'm not going to risk having a guess at when this could be or what it would look like.

I think something being in one's head makes it their reality... whether it's really 'in their head' or not.

I'm not sure how science relates to good and evil.. in some sense, technology may relate to these concepts, but only in a round about way.

Lastly, I'm not sure how much I buy into this antichrist faith/belief. It's a bit too steeped in organised religion...
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  #27  
Old 24-05-2017, 06:24 PM
organic born organic born is offline
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Originally Posted by Carnate
Lastly, I'm not sure how much I buy into this antichrist faith/belief. It's a bit too steeped in organised religion...

..Amen..! :)
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  #28  
Old 24-05-2017, 08:49 PM
organic born organic born is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnate
This is too large a topic to go into detail here. And it should be read as a personal belief based on a wide range of information/knowledge I've gathered.. you'll be able to find your own truth (that sits well with you).

Rather than rewrite everything, I'll direct you to another thread that covers this in some detail (and has some links that are worth looking at). http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...d.php?t=112746
.
I read the full thread and enjoyed yours and CrystalSong exchange with great interest. I've studied some of this in the past and am familiar with many of the concepts and observations. I read one interesting book based on an individuals exploration into personal past life regressions. She wanted to visit as many of the lives that she'd experienced along the way in order to gain a direct sense of our history as a species. Here first life that she recalled was from this period that you'd mentioned. She worked at one of these temples as a priestess (or something along those line, it's been a while since I'd read it). Of all the lives she recalled this one was the most 'spiritual'. The memory she'd recalled was her entering the temple and having to pass the guards at the entrance. These guards weren't fully human and were uncomfortably intense. They peered right into your soul in such a way that no secrets could be hidden. She mentioned that this was perhaps one of her least favorite lifetimes. She was a human among creatures most differently wired. Her following lives were far more pedestrian and challenging in a more familiar way.

What I thought was interesting about this was the need for 'guards'. And that humans and 'these other folks' lived side by side in something of an uncomfortable alliance.

I'm also familiar with the vibrational frequencies of organisms. Which totally makes sense, since there is no real physical matter (in terms of actual solids) and I've had experiences where I've directly seen this vibrational interaction within specific lucid dream exposures. I'm comfortably onboard with your observations along these lines.

As to the place that science plays in observing all this, my opinion is more complicated. I tried studying our place in this universe in purely spiritual terms for quite a few years, but it wasn't until I turned my attention to what science is "now" saying about our bodies that has me now totally attentive to their most recent findings. I had numerous health issues that I'd been attributing to karma, spiritual imbalances, that sort of thing, but it wasn't until I started studying the emerging science of nutritional needs that I was able to address such issues to the point where they've all not-only cleared-up, but at no point in this lifetime have I ever been healthier. No supplements, just food. And people make far more sense now that I'm exploring the human condition via the emerging sciences of developmental progression. All of this is providing a contextual traction that one simply can't find within a spiritual setting/exploration.

We are animals, in terms of our bodily experience. In watching a child develop they do so at a fairly common and predictable pace (except for many who have been heavily vaccinated, in which case mileage may very). There is a 'human' experience and history that is intently important to this spiritual journey. Such a study tends to fill-in some deeply important aspects as to how we experience ourselves as a species, as well as individuals.

Both the spiritual and scientific can indeed compliment each other in this regard. In fact the scientific stuff suggests that much of what we consider spiritual is merely an extension of our physical experience. Even when I've been out of body things still take the shape and content of what I'm experiencing on a physical level. We have to go a long way indeed off the beaten path in order to actually encounter a spiritually germain experience. And when done so, outside this human context, we are still needing to convert such an encounter into a physically-relevant-event in order for our current mind to recall it. So spirituality, while in a human form, will likely always be a shadowy affair.

Upon further reading I now tend to generally agree with essentially everything I've seen you post so far, and I'm in awe of CrystalSong's exploratory talents! I'm just wanting to point to something that's generally left out of the spiritual conversation. We are experiencing ourselves as human animals within a humanized context, and being such this will take priority over any of our spiritual endeavors. We're needing to get this physical part of our experience straightened out in order to provide the best 'grounding' possible for anything expansive that's beyond this particular frame of reference.

I also suspect that our purpose for being here is to experience our existence from this rather unique vantage. I suspect that there are not all-that many opportunities for our souls to forget itself in favor of something this uniquely radical.

I love your mother without having met her. Your affectionate memory of her says it all! :)
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  #29  
Old 24-05-2017, 10:36 PM
weareunity weareunity is offline
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Hello Ahriman and all. A brief personal opinion regarding your enquiry Ahriman.

I think science is about uncovering what is, rather than discovering. One way in which science is doing this is in the revealing in a particular manner the interconnection of all which is, all which is now looking like a continuous process with matter being one manifestation of process happening. All which is is whole, that is to say nothing-no thing- and no process is separate from the whole, nor can be. What can happen though is that the sentient being may evolve, develop, but not necessarily with the awareness of being of the whole. I would personally say that to a large extent this is a result of ignorance--by which I do not mean stupidity, but simply not knowing, not realising--even though such knowing may have been available to us through the understanding of some who have indeed reached that realisation and have sought to communicate that understanding both in terms which would be understandable in their own time, within the terminology, culture and belief of that time, but also sought to communicate that realisation in terms which might be understood by those living in a different time, with different terminology, culture and belief.

In our time, science begins to understand this interconnection of wholeness by means of observable evidence. I would say sufficiently to realise a general understanding that we each and all are inseperably of the whole. I think this is a reasonably easy perception to adopt personally-- if only as a step beyond simply concept initially. Even this step is transformative I think.

Good wishes. petex.
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  #30  
Old 25-05-2017, 06:42 AM
Carnate Carnate is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by organic born
Upon further reading I now tend to generally agree with essentially everything I've seen you post so far, and I'm in awe of CrystalSong's exploratory talents! I'm just wanting to point to something that's generally left out of the spiritual conversation. We are experiencing ourselves as human animals within a humanized context, and being such this will take priority over any of our spiritual endeavors. We're needing to get this physical part of our experience straightened out in order to provide the best 'grounding' possible for anything expansive that's beyond this particular frame of reference.

I also suspect that our purpose for being here is to experience our existence from this rather unique vantage. I suspect that there are not all-that many opportunities for our souls to forget itself in favor of something this uniquely radical.

I love your mother without having met her. Your affectionate memory of her says it all! :)
Thanks for reading through the thread, and for considering the details in a positive way.

I've also got to say that you've got a nice way of writing that's easy to read while being very detailed and informative; it flows nicely from one topic to the next, and is tied together in a logical way. The forum is better for having you participate.

In relation to why were here, my beliefs align with your suspicions. We're here in physical/animal bodies because of the unique opportunities that the plane of existence provides. There are several layers to this, and generally, the one(s) I discuss align with the topic at hand.. but here, it seems like I need to cover all of them or leave it in a general / vague sense. Because I'm short on time, I'll simply say that the physical plane allows greater opportunity to progress spiritually; in a way that isn't possible within the subtle realms. If you (or other people) are interested in more details, post a reply, and I'll go into some more depth when time is more favourable.
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