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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Hinduism

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  #21  
Old 15-04-2017, 06:41 PM
ajay00 ajay00 is offline
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The ideal Guru is great alright, but an ideal disciple is equally great, imho.

There has been cases where great gurus came , but the disciples were not able to properly understand the import of her teachings, and if they did, failed to put it into application. And if they did put it into application, failed to do so in adverse circumstances or situations.

I would say that it is only a quality disciple endowed with good study habits, work habits and courage who can take advantage of the presence and teachings of an ideal guru or spiritual teacher and earn grace and merit for himself.

A spiritual seeker must have excellent study and work habits along with courage to attain enlightenment, as seen in the case of Siddhartha who attained Nirvana.
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  #22  
Old 20-04-2017, 12:27 AM
peteyzen peteyzen is offline
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well said Ajay, and I agree. Although Siddhartha paradoxically, found his way mostly by himself, which is extremely rare.
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  #23  
Old 20-04-2017, 02:03 PM
jonesboy jonesboy is offline
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Originally Posted by peteyzen
well said Ajay, and I agree. Although Siddhartha paradoxically, found his way mostly by himself, which is extremely rare.

He worked with many, many teachers so I am not sure where you got that from.

He then even sent up a system of monks called bhikkhu's to teach Buddhism. So the Buddha was all about having a teacher/guru. You can't go very far in Buddhism without the empowerments and transmissions from a teacher.
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  #24  
Old 20-04-2017, 05:00 PM
django django is online now
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Prince Siddhattha sought out two of the most eminent [guru's], Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta. From them he learned systems of meditation which, from the descriptions in the texts, seem to have been forerunners of Raja Yoga. The Bodhisatta mastered their teachings and systems of meditation, but though he reached exalted levels of concentration (samadhi), he found these teachings insufficient, for they did not lead to the goal he was seeking. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/a.../wheel433.html

He then followed the ascetic way of life and found it insufficient, at which point he thought up the middle way, which he pursued to enlightenment.

I think it would be fair to say that he did find his way mostly by himself.

As to endorsing teachers/gurus, Buddha seems to have been very pro-independence, eg -

The Buddha did not praise his own teaching and attack his rivals. Rather, he told them:
It is right for you to doubt; doubt has arisen in you about dubious matters. Come, Kalamas, do not rely on oral tradition, or on the lineage of teachers, or on holy scriptures, or on abstract logic. Do not place blind trust in impressive personalities or in venerated gurus, but examine the issue for yourselves. When you know for yourselves that something is unwholesome and harmful, then you should reject it. And when you know for yourselves that something is wholesome and beneficial, then you should accept it and put it into practice.— AN 3.65
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/a.../wheel433.html

Overall Buddha himself is no guru poster boy, though the concept of needing empowerments and transmissions does seem to have arisen in later schools of Buddhism.
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  #25  
Old 20-04-2017, 05:36 PM
jonesboy jonesboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by django
Prince Siddhattha sought out two of the most eminent [guru's], Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta. From them he learned systems of meditation which, from the descriptions in the texts, seem to have been forerunners of Raja Yoga. The Bodhisatta mastered their teachings and systems of meditation, but though he reached exalted levels of concentration (samadhi), he found these teachings insufficient, for they did not lead to the goal he was seeking. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/a.../wheel433.html

He then followed the ascetic way of life and found it insufficient, at which point he thought up the middle way, which he pursued to enlightenment.

I think it would be fair to say that he did find his way mostly by himself.

As to endorsing teachers/gurus, Buddha seems to have been very pro-independence, eg -

The Buddha did not praise his own teaching and attack his rivals. Rather, he told them:
It is right for you to doubt; doubt has arisen in you about dubious matters. Come, Kalamas, do not rely on oral tradition, or on the lineage of teachers, or on holy scriptures, or on abstract logic. Do not place blind trust in impressive personalities or in venerated gurus, but examine the issue for yourselves. When you know for yourselves that something is unwholesome and harmful, then you should reject it. And when you know for yourselves that something is wholesome and beneficial, then you should accept it and put it into practice.— AN 3.65
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/a.../wheel433.html

Overall Buddha himself is no guru poster boy, though the concept of needing empowerments and transmissions does seem to have arisen in later schools of Buddhism.

The Buddha had around 6 different teachers, mastering each system but found each one lacking.

It is when he realized the middle way that he became awakened.

The Buddha always said to test out what he said, he said that because he wants you to DO the practices... But he was very much a guru, setup a system of monks and told people to look to them for learning and guidance.

The 3 Jewels..

Take refuge in the Buddha, the Dharma (teachings) and the Sangha (Buddhas and monks)...

Seems far from not needing a guru and to go it alone...

Going it alone is more like the blind leading the blind

Also, Theravāda uses empowerments as well :)
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  #26  
Old 20-04-2017, 05:48 PM
sky123 sky123 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by django
Prince Siddhattha sought out two of the most eminent [guru's], Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta. From them he learned systems of meditation which, from the descriptions in the texts, seem to have been forerunners of Raja Yoga. The Bodhisatta mastered their teachings and systems of meditation, but though he reached exalted levels of concentration (samadhi), he found these teachings insufficient, for they did not lead to the goal he was seeking. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/a.../wheel433.html

He then followed the ascetic way of life and found it insufficient, at which point he thought up the middle way, which he pursued to enlightenment.

I think it would be fair to say that he did find his way mostly by himself.

As to endorsing teachers/gurus, Buddha seems to have been very pro-independence, eg -

The Buddha did not praise his own teaching and attack his rivals. Rather, he told them:
It is right for you to doubt; doubt has arisen in you about dubious matters. Come, Kalamas, do not rely on oral tradition, or on the lineage of teachers, or on holy scriptures, or on abstract logic. Do not place blind trust in impressive personalities or in venerated gurus, but examine the issue for yourselves. When you know for yourselves that something is unwholesome and harmful, then you should reject it. And when you know for yourselves that something is wholesome and beneficial, then you should accept it and put it into practice. AN 3.65
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/a.../wheel433.html

Overall Buddha himself is no guru poster boy, though the concept of needing empowerments and transmissions does seem to have arisen in later schools of Buddhism.


Exactly
Transmission/empowerments....add - ons to make the gurus/teachers look as though they have some power over others.
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  #27  
Old 20-04-2017, 05:56 PM
jonesboy jonesboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sky123
Exactly
Transmission/empowerments....add - ons to make the gurus/teachers look as though they have some power over others.

Oh my goodness, that is ego..

That has nothing to do with empowerments or transmissions.

If you are that caught up in ego you can't be a guru like is being described in the first post of this thread.
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  #28  
Old 21-04-2017, 12:52 AM
django django is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesboy
The Buddha had around 6 different teachers, mastering each system but found each one lacking.

It is when he realized the middle way that he became awakened.

The Buddha always said to test out what he said, he said that because he wants you to DO the practices... But he was very much a guru, setup a system of monks and told people to look to them for learning and guidance.

The 3 Jewels..

Take refuge in the Buddha, the Dharma (teachings) and the Sangha (Buddhas and monks)...

Seems far from not needing a guru and to go it alone...

Going it alone is more like the blind leading the blind

Also, Theravāda uses empowerments as well :)

Have you got some reference for "6 different teachers"?

Buddha did choose to 'go it alone' after not finding what he wanted from the guru/teachers he initially studied with. He earned the title of Sammasambuddha having realized the Four Noble Truths and attained Nibbana, through his own enlightenment.

Quote:

Samma-sam-buddha: 'Perfect Enlightenment', Universal Buddhahood, is the state attained by a Universal Buddha sammā-sambuddha i.e. one by whom the liberating law Dhamma which had become lost to the world, has again been discovered, realized and clearly proclaimed to the world.

A Samma-sam-buddha is not just an enlightened one, such as an arahant, but the one who rediscovers the teachings and teaches the masses, after the Dhamma has disappeared from the world.

Now, someone, in things never heard before, understands by himself the truth, and he therein attains omniscience, and gains mastery in the powers. Such a one is called a Universal Buddha, or Enlightened One.

https://dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Samma-sambodhi
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  #29  
Old 21-04-2017, 01:08 PM
Bindu* Bindu* is offline
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Isn't Buddha is considered an avatar ?
Not enlightened by step by step sadhana (spiritual practices).
Just like Krishna, Rama, Jesus ?
As avatara is considered awakened from birth. Isn't the the spiritual practices and life script of their life hard to analyse like ordinary saints and masters ?
Isn't it more like a play for show in the game ?
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  #30  
Old 21-04-2017, 02:04 PM
jonesboy jonesboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by django
Have you got some reference for "6 different teachers"?

Buddha did choose to 'go it alone' after not finding what he wanted from the guru/teachers he initially studied with. He earned the title of Sammasambuddha having realized the Four Noble Truths and attained Nibbana, through his own enlightenment.

Here you go.. The 5 ascetics were masters of Yoga that he spent time with and mastered each of there methods.

For the next six years, Siddhartha lived an ascetic life and partook in its practices, studying and meditating using the words of various religious teachers as his guide. He practiced his new way of life with a group of five ascetics, and his dedication to his quest was so stunning that the five ascetics became Siddhartha's followers. When answers to his questions did not appear, however, he redoubled his efforts, enduring pain, fasting nearly to starvation, and refusing water.

Whatever he tried, Siddhartha could not reach the level of satisfaction he sought, until one day when a young girl offered him a bowl of rice. As he accepted it, he suddenly realized that corporeal austerity was not the means to achieve inner liberation, and that living under harsh physical constraints was not helping him achieve spiritual release. So he had his rice, drank water and bathed in the river. The five ascetics decided that Siddhartha had given up the ascetic life and would now follow the ways of the flesh, and they promptly left him. From then on, however, Siddhartha encouraged people to follow a path of balance instead of one characterized by extremism. He called this path the Middle Way.


Quote:
Samma-sam-buddha: 'Perfect Enlightenment', Universal Buddhahood, is the state attained by a Universal Buddha sammā-sambuddha i.e. one by whom the liberating law Dhamma which had become lost to the world, has again been discovered, realized and clearly proclaimed to the world.

A Samma-sam-buddha is not just an enlightened one, such as an arahant, but the one who rediscovers the teachings and teaches the masses, after the Dhamma has disappeared from the world.

Now, someone, in things never heard before, understands by himself the truth, and he therein attains omniscience, and gains mastery in the powers. Such a one is called a Universal Buddha, or Enlightened One.

https://dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Samma-sambodhi

You do understand that only you can take the step to enlightenment?

A teacher and a guru can help light the way, make it easier and faster but you have to take the steps.

That is all that is saying... not ignore them and just figure things out by yourself
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