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  #151  
Old 09-03-2018, 12:42 AM
Moonglow Moonglow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molearner
lemex,

Ego is acquired, IMO, spirit is accessed. One is temporal, one is eternal. Ego, technically, is not observable until a child refers to himself as "I" instead of the name that others might call him/her.

I find this to be a simple and good way of looking at it.

Thank you
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  #152  
Old 09-03-2018, 04:47 PM
weareunity weareunity is offline
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I suggest that the newly emerging "I" needs to feel accepted into the whole--(which to that emergent "I" is all else which is, )--needs to be accepted into the whole. Wise and loving caring fulfills this function. Fawning devotion, or projection of unfulfilled parental aspiration on to the child are incapable of fulfilling this function, for both make a servant of the child, denying the freedom to grow emotionally. So in those circumstances, and for other reasons which may hinder the necessary healthy transfer of significance from carer to emergent"I" as affirmation of being of the whole, the emergent "I" is obliged to construct some other means to provide that affirmation, a means that is not dependant upon what is beyond the "I", but is within the capability of the "I" to provide. The result is likely to be a form of self centredness, self centred behaviour, which would seem to be in response to not feeling affirmed as being of the whole, and ironically has the consequence of furthering and confirming any such supposed separation.

This is what I understand to be the nature of so called egotistic behaviour and the reason for it. This is not judgemental, it happens. The consequences for both the developing child and for that childs/now adult interaction with all which is also happen. If those consequences are thought to be in some way detrimental to that child/now adult and to society as a whole, then that is when and where judgement is required as to how such consequences may be avoided. In my judgement such consequences can only be avoided through understanding the mechanism which leads to forms of self centredess which have detrimental consequences to both individual and society.

petex
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  #153  
Old 09-03-2018, 05:40 PM
Molearner Molearner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonglow
I find this to be a simple and good way of looking at it.

Thank you

Moonglow,

Thanks for your response. The simplicity was due to the computer gobbling up my initial reply......:) To extend the thought somewhat: IMO, the world sends us a message.......defend yourself.....put up a shield! The ego becomes our shield. It is not a shield against God/Spirit. It is a shield for our preservation against the world. It springs from fear, not love. It is not God-given. Does anyone honestly thank God for having a wonderful ego?.....:) As a matter of fact it is when puts down this shield it then becomes possible to 'fall in love'. Yes, this is simplistic to a degree. On the other hand, I see others twist into pretzels to praise/defend the ego. I just happen to view it differently.....:)
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  #154  
Old 10-03-2018, 10:40 AM
Greenslade Greenslade is offline
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Originally Posted by Moonglow
Namaste Greenslade,

It seems the brain is barely known and there is progress in exploring its functions, yet it seems we hardly know much less use its full function.

You have me peeking around the Web and briefly skimmed over some things about Hameroff. Not being familiar with him, it does look interesting. Yay, more stuff to learn.

Consciousness is often mentioned, but do we really understand it? How much is stored in our DNA and general make up of being Human, not to mention the Spirit parts? I do feel science is catching up with Spirituality. Just different approaches in seeking to understand our being.

Ego at play, what comes to me. The wonder and hunger to know oneself. Not in a pompous way, but in the pure way of couriosity and wonder.

Come across, from time to time, talk of other dimensions. Wonder if some of these seen or felt as another dimension is simply an opening up of what is already with in us. Lays sleeping or unnoticed until something triggers it to wake up and then shifts the outlook upon the world.

Things become brighter and more in tune with lifes movements. Feeling giving the sense of being in another demention, but still here, just the view has widened a bit.

This may lead to, that what has been told to one is not all there is, we are much more, there is much more. Imagine it to be like the first time someone looked through a telescope and saw there is more to this then just here.

This is some of how it has come to me. With in it all my ego laughs, shrugs, stand humbled by it. Depending what comes along.

Don't know how it all occurs and to bring Spirit and loved ones in spirit communicating with me, brother now you got a party. (got a little carried away).

The whole thing about ego for me is in what contex is it being talked about?
If it be having a self identity, then it seems to me it is how one expresses such.
If be in how one thinks things to be, then it can reflect just how creative we are.

Some say it is as you think it to be. Some of this is true, then as you presented there are those other aspects that appear to have no thinking about it involved.
They just occur.

I feel we are also energetic being and sense this with each other. This seems just as natural as speaking, hugging, and all the other fleshy bits, just that it flows a little differently. As best I can express this at present. Which seems science and Spirituality seem to explore and point to. Just in different terms.
Namaste Moonglow

The fact is mate, while we know quite a bit about science, the brain and Spirituality we really don't know much more than a very small portion of any of it. I've seen a few 'What is consciousness?'-type YouTubes lately and they all come to the same conclusions - nobody really knows and what is known is a couple of facts.

We don't know what#s stored in our genes although best guess is the collective memories of prior generations. Did you know that DNA emits light? We put so much store in consciousness but never explore the subconscious, and that's where it all happens. When you talk to people it all happens in your subconscious first and you only become conscious 'after the fact' - when you're saying it. The conscious lags behind the subconscious just a tiny fraction of a second, but still a lag.

What also hinders Spirituality is the collective unconscious and nobody thinks about it. This bit about Light good dark bad? That's an avatar of the collective unconsciousness from back in the day we were prey animals to lions and tigers and bears. Oh my!

Your ego is what looks back at you in the mirror in the morning, and the only question is "Can I live with it or not?" In whatever shape or form it takes, your ego is a memory of your past experiences and how you've come through them. It's also how you interact with the world around you - with the people on this forum and the ones you share your Life with.

Your ego is the reality you've created for yourself.
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  #155  
Old 10-03-2018, 10:48 AM
Greenslade Greenslade is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molearner
lemex,

Ego is acquired, IMO, spirit is accessed. One is temporal, one is eternal. Ego, technically, is not observable until a child refers to himself as "I" instead of the name that others might call him/her.
Ego is an interaction between you and your environment, so strictly speaking it's not acquired per se - sorry to nit-pick but I think it's important enough to mention. It's an interaction between you and Life in general - the things that happen to you, the experiences you've had, your perceptions... Your reality as you have created it.

Your Spirituality comes firstly from your genes and the rest is ego, all you have to do is ask "What are the reasons I think of myself as Spiritual, what are the reasons I have these beliefs?"
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  #156  
Old 10-03-2018, 02:55 PM
Moonglow Moonglow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenslade
Namaste Moonglow

The fact is mate, while we know quite a bit about science, the brain and Spirituality we really don't know much more than a very small portion of any of it. I've seen a few 'What is consciousness?'-type YouTubes lately and they all come to the same conclusions - nobody really knows and what is known is a couple of facts.

We don't know what#s stored in our genes although best guess is the collective memories of prior generations. Did you know that DNA emits light? We put so much store in consciousness but never explore the subconscious, and that's where it all happens. When you talk to people it all happens in your subconscious first and you only become conscious 'after the fact' - when you're saying it. The conscious lags behind the subconscious just a tiny fraction of a second, but still a lag.

What also hinders Spirituality is the collective unconscious and nobody thinks about it. This bit about Light good dark bad? That's an avatar of the collective unconsciousness from back in the day we were prey animals to lions and tigers and bears. Oh my!

Your ego is what looks back at you in the mirror in the morning, and the only question is "Can I live with it or not?" In whatever shape or form it takes, your ego is a memory of your past experiences and how you've come through them. It's also how you interact with the world around you - with the people on this forum and the ones you share your Life with.

Your ego is the reality you've created for yourself.

Namaste Greenslade,

What you present brings the thoughts back to "ego" being the identity of the self and how one relates to this.

Can relate that "ego" is the conscious aspect of ourselves. Jung comes to mind in the sense of recalling a book he wrote called Man and his Symbols. Which has me thinking that "ego" as being a symbol, then ask; What does it symbolize?

Mindfulness also comes to mind. Being aware of what is happening. How many pay attention to what is happening with in, without, and all around them? Reason for asking is it occurs to me that it all plays into the "ego" aspect of oneself. How one may relate to the self affecting how one relate to the world.

It plays into what is consciously noticed and what may seep into the unconconscious. Having remembered dreams, notice at times this playing out in my mind. The mind sorting through the information and bringing it to the forefront.

Yes, there are also those aspects passed down that seem to also play into our consciousness as a whole and individual.

Can go along with the outlook we create our reality, but in the sense of what may be perceived and/or believed to be real. Which seems to affect how one may judge things to be. Which in my book is not a bad thing, just the way to evaluate things. It is more in the manner how one projects these thoughts out that seem to have effects on another or not.

This can seem related to the "ego" aspect if "ego" is related to how one thinks it to be.

The thing that gets my mind going "hold on here" is that "ego" is just a symbol.
There is no real "ego". There is that which I am or we are aware/conscious of and that which I may or we are not be at present.

But, you do present an interesting twist to all this. That is our brain processing the information and it entering our physical consciousness seems to be one step behind what is occurring or just occurred.

Which brings back the thoughts on being mindfull, what others may call "street smart". Being aware of ones surroundings and in tune with it. Another subject perhaps here, but find it thought provoking. How many pay attention to this?
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  #157  
Old 10-03-2018, 03:09 PM
Moonglow Moonglow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molearner
Moonglow,

Thanks for your response. The simplicity was due to the computer gobbling up my initial reply......:) To extend the thought somewhat: IMO, the world sends us a message.......defend yourself.....put up a shield! The ego becomes our shield. It is not a shield against God/Spirit. It is a shield for our preservation against the world. It springs from fear, not love. It is not God-given. Does anyone honestly thank God for having a wonderful ego?.....:) As a matter of fact it is when puts down this shield it then becomes possible to 'fall in love'. Yes, this is simplistic to a degree. On the other hand, I see others twist into pretzels to praise/defend the ego. I just happen to view it differently.....:)

Hi Moleaner,

I can respect your point of view. Again, depends how one may relate to "ego".

If it be a an aspect of oneself seeking or trying to maintain control, then can relate to it in a way being fearful of losing control.

If it be in how one may think it to be, then it can go either way. Think fearfully, then would think one would act from this place. Think lovingly, then one would act from this.

Life for me seems to involve both side of the scale.

For me it not a matter of praising/defending or condemning "ego", as much as finding it interesting in further understanding each other.

Seeing "ego" as a shield is an interesting way of viewing it, for it seems in some manner the term is used in defending the "self" or how the self relates. Looking at it this way the ask;what is one defending?
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  #158  
Old 10-03-2018, 03:26 PM
weareunity weareunity is offline
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Hello all. Referring back to my posts 55, 132, 152--and for no other reason than to continue the flow of the suggestions made therein--:-

If the suggestion made in 152 has validity, then it should be possible to get some idea concerning any validity by the following method:-

If we first allow the suggestion to be valid for the purpose of the exercise, then figure out what would be needed within the framework of that suggestion in order to allow the "I" to abandon the pattern of self centred behaviour and perception in favour of behaviour not so detrimental to either society at large or that particular individual, then this "therapeutic process" ( for want of a better term) could be applied, and if successful would indicate in some measure that the original suggestion has validity.

Now of course we would not be in a position perhaps to apply this process with an emergent "I" as subject. But I would suggest that the pattern of self centred behaviour and perception adopted at that early stage is likely to persist into adulthood if no alternative means of affirmation is offered and accepted. This simply because it is difficult to change that upon which you have become dependant, --in this case self centred behaviour,--by means available within that self centred perception. I suggest it needs an input of the required kind from an external source in order for that change to take place.

So, it should I believe be possible to apply the" therapeutic process" to an adult and then observe the results in order to test the validity of the suggestion.

I would further suggest that this has already been done. The "therapeutic process" is I think basically the offering of acceptance and significance to the "I" thereby allowing the self centred perception and behaviour to become redundant and so discarded in favour of something which was actually sought tough not found anyway, and also actually fulfills the need. Love, compassion, understanding, companionship.

These will be recognised as being the central considerations characterising some beliefs, long established but often understood as virtues to be sought rather than ways to use.

petex
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  #159  
Old 10-03-2018, 05:17 PM
lemex lemex is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonglow
Seeing "ego" as a shield is an interesting way of viewing it, for it seems in some manner the term is used in defending the "self" or how the self relates. Looking at it this way the ask;what is one defending?


Again you bring up some very insightful ideas which seem to agree with things I'm seeing and have read. If we are going to define the ego we have to now define the self. Do we think ego is the same as Self. If I understand aspects of self, ego is an aspect of it and as an aspect only a part. The ego is surprisingly not the (whole) Self. In this conversation the ego is the decision maker hence why imo important.

Of course Ego is awareness of self (it knows) but also not aware Self is larger and there are parts of self ego does not know. Ego is our subjective part of being conscious. Ego is part of being subjective. Ego relies on the known not the unknown part of Self. The un or sub conscious is not ego. So ego is defended what is known not unknown, things it cannot imagine (image). Jung for instance believed in the shadow ego which today is repression. He had belief how it and other aspects should be incorporated into the self. That there are simply parts of self that are hidden. So how can decisions be made when parts of self are hidden. No one has said if the ego expands (grows as more is brought into conscious awareness) which is what I see. That as one becomes more aware and the unknown (of or in Self) becomes smaller by becoming known ego grows and blossoms, it has to change because it sees more, it's known is greater and ego cannot do anything opposite to itself. The Self is the classroom.

I think Self is not ego and as Self opens ego changes. Ego can defend only what it knows but a person can always know more, ie: spiritual. Do you think the ego is the decision maker? Spirituality can be hindered by the decisions we make is my thought to the original question.
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  #160  
Old 10-03-2018, 05:28 PM
Moonglow Moonglow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weareunity
Hello all. Referring back to my posts 55, 132, 152--and for no other reason than to continue the flow of the suggestions made therein--:-

If the suggestion made in 152 has validity, then it should be possible to get some idea concerning any validity by the following method:-

If we first allow the suggestion to be valid for the purpose of the exercise, then figure out what would be needed within the framework of that suggestion in order to allow the "I" to abandon the pattern of self centred behaviour and perception in favour of behaviour not so detrimental to either society at large or that particular individual, then this "therapeutic process" ( for want of a better term) could be applied, and if successful would indicate in some measure that the original suggestion has validity.

Now of course we would not be in a position perhaps to apply this process with an emergent "I" as subject. But I would suggest that the pattern of self centred behaviour and perception adopted at that early stage is likely to persist into adulthood if no alternative means of affirmation is offered and accepted. This simply because it is difficult to change that upon which you have become dependant, --in this case self centred behaviour,--by means available within that self centred perception. I suggest it needs an input of the required kind from an external source in order for that change to take place.

So, it should I believe be possible to apply the" therapeutic process" to an adult and then observe the results in order to test the validity of the suggestion.

I would further suggest that this has already been done. The "therapeutic process" is I think basically the offering of acceptance and significance to the "I" thereby allowing the self centred perception and behaviour to become redundant and so discarded in favour of something which was actually sought tough not found anyway, and also actually fulfills the need. Love, compassion, understanding, companionship.

These will be recognised as being the central considerations characterising some beliefs, long established but often understood as virtues to be sought rather than ways to use.

petex

Hi weareunity,

The thought that pops into my head is; Isn't any act or desire to improve oneself in a way self centered?

This is not to dismiss or discourage self improvement , just questioning the intent of doing such.

You mentioned in another post here (I believe) what is affirmed in us as children can carry over into adulthood (paraphrasing). Which I find to be an interesting point.

For this seem to be reflected not only in verbal ways, but physical ways as well.
Which seems to affect self image as well how the world is perceived by "I".

If it be the "ego" aspect of the mind then perhaps takes a little more then affirmations, but a willingness and ability for a person to create the changes. Just a thought here.

Also, in what ways one may associate love, compassion, companionship, and understanding seems to play into the mix. As reflected upon forums such as this and others, social media, and general day to day interactions.

But the question that plays in my mind is; Are any of these separate from our Spiritual association(s) and/or connections? Or is it forming or conforming to how one may feel or relate to it all? Which seems what is termed "ego" or what one may identify with, may play a part.

I am all for finding ways to accept oneself and finding peace with it, just to be clear.

The part I play with at times is, it seems the manner in which one may act out, think, or express this. Which is some of what you present, as it is understood by me.
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