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  #21  
Old 25-06-2016, 07:27 AM
wstein wstein is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by confusionsay
A light bulb just went on- clearly I have misunderstood wu wei. SO basically this is really not anything new. its no formula, for "getting" its just a state of mind. It doesnt solve the problem because there was none, except we created it.
I can not speak to 'wu wei'.

More or less I would guess. I think of it as an unlearning of a false premise. As far as I can tell this 'problem' state of mind is an artifact of experience as a finite being. You come into the world all needy and utterly dependent. It seems like things need to be 'done' for you. As you grow up you naturally take over responsibility of doing those things for yourself.

This 'forgetting' your true nature when you incarnate is really annoying, though probably needed for at first as it can be hard to focus on this life if you are remembering so many others. FYI the Book and TV mini-series 'Children of Dune' looks at that issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by confusionsay
the way then is what I choose it to be with no regrets, that sums it up.?
A fine point, the word 'choose' contains cause and effect. More accurately it is as you observe (experience) it to be.

Definitely no regrets.

This idea of 'choosing' is Western baggage. Imagine you are fully realized and everything is as you would have it be. What would you need to choose? Choice is for those who wish to change something.
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  #22  
Old 25-06-2016, 03:19 PM
confusionsay
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wstein
I can not speak to 'wu wei'.

More or less I would guess. I think of it as an unlearning of a false premise. As far as I can tell this 'problem' state of mind is an artifact of experience as a finite being. You come into the world all needy and utterly dependent. It seems like things need to be 'done' for you. As you grow up you naturally take over responsibility of doing those things for yourself.

This 'forgetting' your true nature when you incarnate is really annoying, though probably needed for at first as it can be hard to focus on this life if you are remembering so many others. FYI the Book and TV mini-series 'Children of Dune' looks at that issue.

A fine point, the word 'choose' contains cause and effect. More accurately it is as you observe (experience) it to be.

Definitely no regrets.

This idea of 'choosing' is Western baggage. Imagine you are fully realized and everything is as you would have it be. What would you need to choose? Choice is for those who wish to change something.

Hi Wstein, I hope your day is well...

I should clarify, that when I talk of choice, i am talking of understanding, "movement" from one understanding to the next. In that sense we choose an attitude.

I believe we have some choice. I.e. what we want to eat for lunch or, if we are going to go to work today etc.

its interesting to discuss free will and taoism. I dont know enough about "the way" to know if free will exists or if it is an illusion of choice.

I suspect there is balance, in that we have personal choice, and in others there is nothing to do, i.e. wu wei.

I do wish to change something. Im not sure if that disqualifies me as a taoist, but it is just honesty.
I wish to have a path. Something that I can get out of bed in the morning and enjoy doing...I accept my life as it is now. but this is I hope, only temporary. My personal true nature is to balance life by living(being) and doing. If I desire to find my path it becomes necessary for me to make a choice about this path since as you mentioned we forget our true nature when we are born and its certainly annoying!
But I am also accepting of this too as best I can. The whole problem is , what to choose. this Is why i have been doing nothing. in order to contemplate my true nature, and see what my path will be, if there is one. I cant help but fear there may not be one. I want to marry, but that seems unlikely. I want to have purpose. that too seems unlikely right now. I have no friends, and it is unlikely I will find friends. all this is part of my "way" which I am not sure if I chose or whether it is destiny or even fate. I accept it. it doesnt mean i have to like my circumstances.
great peace!
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  #23  
Old 25-06-2016, 03:44 PM
confusionsay
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guthrio
Confusionsay,

I like the play on the words "Confucius says" with your name. A hearty welcome to the forum, with such an excellent post!

Allow me to provide some perspectives which may help resolve the dilemma you've described as "...I wonder if maybe there just is nothing for me and this is a good as it gets, why does only nothing keep happening?"

Nothing does not change....because nothing cannot change....

....if one understands that Tao is no-thing to be changed. Why?

Because if you've recognized that "ahhh this is the word for the things i already know"....it is a short leap to understand that this is also the word to connote the "thing" you already are...Tao.

As expanded in the 1st reference, consider that all the "things" you want to do, and all the "things" you want to be, and all the "things" you want to have...as mentioned in your post are essentially ALL ONE THING: Tao.

Doing without doing is accomplished because Tao, and only Tao, is all there is to do or to be anything. There is no “you” or any “activity” besides Tao to do or to be or to change or to perceive.

While you believe your name is (fill in the blank), as Tao, you have no name (not even “Tao” is your name)!

Consider also this perspective to answer your question above about "is there nothing for you".

As expanded in the 2nd reference: There is nothing for you, because there is only everything as you.

If Tao is the essence of you and all of Creation (including "what you desire"), then it is not desire that causes pain. The pain is caused by mistakenly perceiving that "what you desire" is somehow separate from you and that you are separate from "what you desire"....because you have forgotten that you are already, always what IT eternally is AS Itself.

It is Tao, and only Tao, whose slightest movement...animates our very Being, as Itself, and as the "object of our "desire".

Hope this, and the references below, helps you see that:

All is Tao being Itself, by Itself, as Itself….including the experience of you reading this to yourself.


Guthrio, a warm hearted thank you for your welcoming post.

I apologize for not getting back to you sooner, i wanted to take in everything you said.
I think you put it very well in all you said.. Better than I could have.

Yes I believe I understand. My way is my way. there is nothing else.
just being me, is all that can be done. So then the next step would be , who am I? What do i want etc. . I am exploring these fundamental things. by just literally not doing right now. It is necessary for me to find a path. I am Doing this path as it is appropriate in the moment and my circumstances.

I would be lying if I said I did not desire to have a different path than to just do nothing day in day out.

I know there is something greater than this. But even just posting things on this site is living my "way" sharing my knowledge. Giving to others by offering my truth to them etc. is something.

It is maybe not ideal. But its a start. gotta start somewhere.


I need a path to employ what Ive learned. to challenge myself, to help others, and to wake up in the morning with purpose. thats the simplicity of my problem. I get what my purpose is, but what is my lifes work, my path? make sense? the question was rhetorical though, since no one can answer it but me.

great peace!
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  #24  
Old 25-06-2016, 09:43 PM
guthrio guthrio is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by confusionsay
Guthrio, a warm hearted thank you for your welcoming post.

I apologize for not getting back to you sooner, i wanted to take in everything you said.
I think you put it very well in all you said.. Better than I could have.

Yes I believe I understand. My way is my way. there is nothing else.
just being me, is all that can be done. So then the next step would be , who am I? What do i want etc. . I am exploring these fundamental things. by just literally not doing right now. It is necessary for me to find a path. I am Doing this path as it is appropriate in the moment and my circumstances.

I would be lying if I said I did not desire to have a different path than to just do nothing day in day out.

I know there is something greater than this. But even just posting things on this site is living my "way" sharing my knowledge. Giving to others by offering my truth to them etc. is something.

It is maybe not ideal. But its a start. gotta start somewhere.


I need a path to employ what Ive learned. to challenge myself, to help others, and to wake up in the morning with purpose. thats the simplicity of my problem. I get what my purpose is, but what is my lifes work, my path? make sense? the question was rhetorical though, since no one can answer it but me.

great peace!

Confusionsay,

I very much appreciate your passion.....but most especially the frustration implicit in your words:

I would be lying if I said I did not desire to have a different path than to just do nothing day in day out. I know there is something greater than this. But even just posting things on this site is living my "way" sharing my knowledge. Giving to others by offering my truth to them etc. is something. It is maybe not ideal. But its a start. gotta start somewhere.

Your words inspire me to suggest that it may be the last words I highlighted above from your post, which could prove to be both "path" and "answer" concurrently: But its a start. gotta start somewhere.

Considering that all paths you can travel as being Tao Itself, you do understand that all those "paths" to anywhere else must logically include, and be connected to, the physical, mental, Spiritual "place" you are right now, right?

....but more importantly, connected to ALL the "experiential place(s)" you're telling yourself you need to be.....not in some future....but NOW.

How ?

As stated in the 1st reference: ...you don't have to create the reality you desire, because it already exists - among the infinite probable realities all simultaneously co-existing. All you have to do is make yourself an effective "antenna", so that by similarity of vibrations, you can receive that reality. And this makes it physiologically "real" for you.

How can this possibly be ?

I am reminded of how bacteriologist Alexander Fleming "accidentally" discovered penicillin, after what initially looked at first glance like a frustratingly spoiled experiment, that is until Fleming looked closely at it under his microscope. And the rest is history (as described in the 2nd reference). Moral: the answer is "blowing in the wind", right where you are.

Why is any of this relevant to your path, if at all ?

At the very moment where the answer(s) you seek transition from being rhetorical to being the actual point where you discover that, because you are Tao, Itself, your true nature lives, as perfect as an unwritten number, everywhere at once across space and time....

....you may also discover WHY "you must begin by knowing that you have already arrived."...(from one of my favorite quotes in the 3rd reference).

Why could this help you find your path? By enabling you to realize that EVEN WHERE YOU ARE, in what you call "maybe not ideal" circumstances, the answers you seem to think are unavailable to you....ARE RIGHT WHERE YOU ARE.

When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change.
Dr. Wayne Dyer


Who knows? Your very path may lead you to find a long-sought "cure" for the spiritual "malaise" that has infected humankind for as long as we've been suffering under its effects.

....just by being Who and where you are....your way!

And Brother, wouldn't that give you a ?

I hope so....

Reference: http://iasos.com/metaphys/bashar/#Blueprint

Reference: http://www.wisegeek.org/how-was-peni...-developed.htm

Reference: http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...2&postcount=75
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“Why, that’s true! I am a perfect, unlimited gull!” Jonathan opened his eyes. "Where are we?” The Elder brushed the question aside. “We’re on some planet, obviously, with a green sky and a double star for a sun.” Jonathan made a scree of delight. “IT WORKS!" “Well, of course it works, Jon,” said Chiang. “It always works, when you know what you’re doing...."
http://csermelyblog.tehetsegpont.hu/...ir%C3%A1ly.pdf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8COt1n3jDqA&t=19s
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  #25  
Old 25-06-2016, 10:14 PM
confusionsay
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JLS!

Guthrio-
Of the infinite possible replies...
about your post, I have two things to mutter...

1. HMMMMMM...

and,2. Jonathan Livingston Seagull is one of my all time favorite and practical books ever written. We, could make a path based just on that book. We could almost have a sub forum on here called "J.L.S".

I read that book when I was around 11 or 12. I often refer to it in my mind, especially lately. It is no "co-accident" that you have used it in your signature. Because of the influence that book had on my life I Literally view seagulls much differently than other people, and hold them in less contempt (despite the fact that they are presently using MY and only MY car in the lot as thier personal latrine!)

Watching the beauty of a seagull soar over water and dance on the wind is better than an eagle. they are magnificent flyers.

I have always thought the idea of mastery and carrying on in the afterlife, on the learning journey, is absolutely what happens to us. I have read all Of Bach's Books. Might be high time I read them again. My favorites were (in order of preference) J.L.S. then Illusions-The reluctant Messiah, followed closely by "ONE"

I will reread you post to milk its guava!

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  #26  
Old 25-06-2016, 10:37 PM
guthrio guthrio is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by confusionsay
Guthrio-
Of the infinite possible replies...
about your post, I have two things to mutter...

1. HMMMMMM...

and,2. Jonathan Livingston Seagull is one of my all time favorite and practical books ever written. We, could make a path based just on that book. We could almost have a sub forum on here called "J.L.S".

I read that book when I was around 11 or 12. I often refer to it in my mind, especially lately. It is no "co-accident" that you have used it in your signature. Because of the influence that book had on my life I Literally view seagulls much differently than other people, and hold them in less contempt (despite the fact that they are presently using MY and only MY car in the lot as thier personal latrine!)

Watching the beauty of a seagull soar over water and dance on the wind is better than an eagle. they are magnificent flyers.

I have always thought the idea of mastery and carrying on in the afterlife, on the learning journey, is absolutely what happens to us. I have read all Of Bach's Books. Might be high time I read them again. My favorites were (in order of preference) J.L.S. then Illusions-The reluctant Messiah, followed closely by "ONE"

I will reread you post to milk its guava!


Your poor car!
..... that's just a seagull's way scrabbling after fish heads until they've learned how to "fly higher"!

I like the JLS sub-forum idea... and I think there are others who would also like that.

"Be lions roaring in the forests of knowledge, whales swimming in the oceans of life."

Tao is the seeker seeking. Tao is the finder finding. Tao is the way of Itself.
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“Why, that’s true! I am a perfect, unlimited gull!” Jonathan opened his eyes. "Where are we?” The Elder brushed the question aside. “We’re on some planet, obviously, with a green sky and a double star for a sun.” Jonathan made a scree of delight. “IT WORKS!" “Well, of course it works, Jon,” said Chiang. “It always works, when you know what you’re doing...."
http://csermelyblog.tehetsegpont.hu/...ir%C3%A1ly.pdf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8COt1n3jDqA&t=19s

Last edited by guthrio : 25-06-2016 at 11:39 PM.
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  #27  
Old 26-06-2016, 05:51 AM
wstein wstein is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by confusionsay
I believe we have some choice. I.e. what we want to eat for lunch or, if we are going to go to work today etc.
To be clear here in cause I wasn't. You do have a choice, lots of choice, more than most can possibly realize. Choice however is only possibly relevant from the finite perspective. When one accesses their inner divinity they directly create their reality, not choose it (and then make it).

Quote:
Originally Posted by confusionsay
I do wish to change something. Im not sure if that disqualifies me as a taoist, but it is just honesty.
I would say that it confirms you as one. It also says you have more that you can learn from the teachings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by confusionsay
I wish to have a path. Something that I can get out of bed in the morning and enjoy doing...I accept my life as it is now. but this is I hope, only temporary. My personal true nature is to balance life by living(being) and doing.
I would not try to talk you out of your choice. It is a fine choice, it is your choice.

So for now you choose to be you and not you in equal proportions (balance).

I leave you this for consideration: without a path you can enjoy the whole day including the part where you are in bed. Joy does not increase or decrease depending on where you body is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by confusionsay
But I am also accepting of this too as best I can. The whole problem is , what to choose. this Is why i have been doing nothing. in order to contemplate my true nature, and see what my path will be, if there is one. I cant help but fear there may not be one. I want to marry, but that seems unlikely. I want to have purpose. that too seems unlikely right now. I have no friends, and it is unlikely I will find friends. all this is part of my "way" which I am not sure if I chose or whether it is destiny or even fate. I accept it. it doesnt mean i have to like my circumstances.
As to what to choose, have you looked at my 'me not-me exercise'? http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...ad.php?t=53437

I realize this does not directly answer your question but it would give you the knowledge that allows the question to answer itself. By being aware of when you are being yourself, you can naturally gravitate to something that will serve as your path.
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  #28  
Old 26-06-2016, 03:51 PM
confusionsay
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Great stuff again! Thank you for your compassion Wstein.

Great minds think alike!-(as well as not so great ones like mine)I did read over your post on learning to know "who you are". well done! Many people could learn from this method. Maybe organize it in a systematic way, and get it out into the world. we need this.

anyway;
I am not trying to dismiss it, I have done this work already but had no idea others did it too. i have lived a sheltered life. isolated as hermit literally due to a bizarre condition which has no name but makes me ultra sensitive to most noise, crowds, people yelling partying etc. its been a lifelong struggle to just exist let alone truly live. I am not looking for pity about it. just sayin' it is what it is. Its been horrific, and i dont know how i am still alive despite a few suicide attempts, but Im not feeling this way now. I realized, its pointless to attempt that, as we just return to repeat what we need to learn anyway so its folly. but i digress...

I have been on this learning about myself journey (as defined by how you do it), for as long as i have been alive. I have been wondering why I started this at such a young age. I have always been a square peg. I love the x-men movie series because of this. I never fit in. only later in life, at the risk of sound conceited, did I understand i was doing all the things that these master were teaching. I live in peace, i have compassion, I knew who I was at an early age. I saw things others did not, I had the eyes of owl.

what I didnt know until I read your forum was how much I actually did it according to your method. although I never wrote it down. I just always had a clear in-sight as to who I was. and if your saying this is the process, I have completed it, or rather, i have fully undergone it, and the learning curve is slow now. as there is always things to learn. :)

Here is where it gets crazy. Two weeks ago I lost a friend to a betrayal. I wont go into details. I am still reeling over it. trust me when I say it was very confusing for me, and worse, it hurt. I started to undergo the "cleansing process"(I have no other word for this). I had done my cleansing( an emotional and spiritual process that is allowing all emotions to surface , and be released), in the first half of my life. and was very freeing, but sometimes when we experience loss, we must release these toxins in our body(painful emotions). as the new experience is absorbed by our spirit.

The problem is , all that i thought I knew about what i was passionate about, i.e. music, water. swimming, my native american heritage and rite to Elderhood, etc., basically all that I knew that i loved, is now foggy. I dont feel any interest in them at all. I dont want to do anything now, i want to sleep, I lost interest in things i once loved, I dont want to talk to anyone, I dont go out, i dont even want to go outside. and i dont care that I dont.

I have been crying a lot lately. It comes in waves and i know this is residual effect of loss of my friend who was in my life 24/7. in the four years I knew her, I did not spend one night away from her, she lived with me. We were NOT bf/gf. But I thought we were very good friends.

At least I THOUGHT we were. it changed in an instant two weeks ago. and It sent me into a tailspin, and this is mostly why i am reaching out to forums.
The reason i have been wondering about my path is, that since this happened, I dont know who I am anymore. Thats what i figured out yesterday. worded as i was saying it " i dont know who i am anymore"

I seem to have lost all of what i knew about what i loved. I was feeling that way all yesterday. all the work of my first half of my life.

I recognize this as a loss of ego. Becoming who i truly am. it's a paradox.

anyway, this learning who i am, may have to take place all over again but with no ego. if that makes sense?

. I know the basic stuff, i.e. I am lust, i am peaceful, I am empathetic etc, those thoings which are part of my nature, remain, but some of the ones that I did, which as i mentioned i think were egotistical, I have no use for anymore.

the good news is I had a series of co-incidents yesterday which made me feel, that all is well, despite my pain. So I am waiting. I am open.
I will wait and see, as the zen master would say. this too shall pass.

how long have you been on your journey? What was the most key thing you discovered about you?

great peace!
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  #29  
Old 27-06-2016, 01:16 AM
wstein wstein is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by confusionsay
Here is where it gets crazy. Two weeks ago I lost a friend to a betrayal. I wont go into details. I am still reeling over it.
...
I have been crying a lot lately. It comes in waves and i know this is residual effect of loss of my friend who was in my life 24/7. in the four years I knew her, I did not spend one night away from her, she lived with me. We were NOT bf/gf. But I thought we were very good friends.
Sorry you had an unfortunate happening. Four years is a long time to have constant companion. Even though you were not romantic partners, it is still a major loss. That is a time to grieve. Grief causes many of the reactions you describe related to disengagement and feeling disoriented. It will take some time. Its been less than a week for each year you have been close. Even if that closeness may not have been as reciprocal as you imagined, it was all still real to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by confusionsay
how long have you been on your journey?
Always. This body was born 54 years ago. I have some access to vastly more lifetimes. I brought various understandings with me into this life. Unlike most people, they was not beaten out of me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by confusionsay
What was the most key thing you discovered about you?
The bits of soul in most of my incarnations is not pleased about what our over-soul is doing. If there is a reason for all this endless incarnating, it has not shared.
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  #30  
Old 27-06-2016, 01:38 AM
confusionsay
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wstein
Sorry you had an unfortunate happening. Four years is a long time to have constant companion. Even though you were not romantic partners, it is still a major loss. That is a time to grieve. Grief causes many of the reactions you describe related to disengagement and feeling disoriented. It will take some time. Its been less than a week for each year you have been close. Even if that closeness may not have been as reciprocal as you imagined, it was all still real to you.

Always. This body was born 54 years ago. I have some access to vastly more lifetimes. I brought various understandings with me into this life. Unlike most people, they was not beaten out of me.
The bits of soul in most of my incarnations is not pleased about what our over-soul is doing. If there is a reason for all this endless incarnating, it has not shared.
very well put. I appreciate your empathy, and compassion wstein yes im definitely grieving. this was the factor that has shaken my world. and I did not expect it to have such an impact. But it did. and thank you again for understanding.

I was lucky to not have been beaten, but I also did not come here with any knowledge of my past lives if there are any. I guess I have always thought, that for me, I just dont know. I dont know for certain if there is anything after this, or before it. So I live NOW. I didnt become a buddhist because thats saying that we KNOW there is something in next life, and then my focus is not in the here and now, it is concerned with escaping Samsara. no man can know. only he can believe it, or if like you he has direct experience or memory, its still a personal truth unless we do the Vulcan mind meld.

Are you psychic? i.e. can you access this knowledge to help others?
what a gift. I am glad though i do not possess it.
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