Spiritual Forums

Home


Donate!


Articles


CHAT!


Shop


 
Welcome to Spiritual Forums!.

We created this community for people from all backgrounds to discuss Spiritual, Paranormal, Metaphysical, Philosophical, Supernatural, and Esoteric subjects. From Astral Projection to Zen, all topics are welcome. We hope you enjoy your visits.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest, which gives you limited access to most discussions and articles. By joining our free community you will be able to post messages, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own photos, and gain access to our Chat Rooms, Registration is fast, simple, and free, so please, join our community today! !

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, check our FAQs before contacting support. Please read our forum rules, since they are enforced by our volunteer staff. This will help you avoid any infractions and issues.

Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Buddhism

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #251  
Old 08-05-2020, 10:14 PM
Phaelyn Phaelyn is offline
Deactivated Account
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 1,007
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
You can be aware that you're lost in the mind a lot, and you can try to choose not to be, but you'll notice how soon you become lost again. No use pretending that distraction is not a thing.

If we did not become lost in mind a lot, there would be no point in being human in these animal bodies. To me, that's the whole point of this life. To be merged with these animals that requires awareness to navigate. It's like an exercise machine for awareness.

If you don't get lost anymore, you don't incarnate anymore. No reason to. You have solved this test and on to the next one. Being merged with an animal body and mind would no longer be a challenge. They say people with very difficult lives are usually advanced. It's all about challenges for growth. Getting tested. Like ok you can be happy and at peace as a hermit monk.... lets give you a life in a war zone....

Some families we are born into can be like a war zone.
Reply With Quote
  #252  
Old 08-05-2020, 10:51 PM
Gem Gem is offline
Master
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 22,073
  Gem's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaelyn
The experiment I would recommend to others would be this:

There are 8 billion persons on this planet. One less is ok. So take a very long vacation from yourself. Perhaps forever! Stop being a someone. Drop it all. Just be. No agenda, nothing to do (except what you need to do!), nothing to achieve, nothing to judge, you are on vacation from yourself!


I think is.s very easy to say, but upon attempting it you'll be unable because you are someone: the person that you are. Mostly what we can do is be self aware and notice the tendencies of wanting to be someone other than the one we are now. That means you just see things about yourself in a very factual way, and if self judgment is there, which it probably is, then you know it like 'this is self judgment'.


Quote:
No longer thinking or analyzing what you are or should be or are doing or not doing. You're quiet within and without. Finding a way of enjoying or being at peace with whatever is. There is a lot of noise in others, aggression, frantic activity, obsessed with this or that, but that's ok. They are creating and living with what they create. But we can walk around that and not be affected. Not choose that for ourselves.


Most of us have some sort of complex, delusions of grandeur, negatinve self imagery, ingrained self narratives, and also, similar impressions of others. My view is to see what's true, an a lot of these truths are hard to face because we don't want to be like that, bit since it's true, there's no choice. It is the way it is and it is not some other way.


Quote:
This is how I interpret Buddhism or the path. It's to simply realize what we are and have always been. Peace and Love. To be and project that and not this other stuff.


I think the basic trick is to begin to discern between the actuality of the lived experience and the fabrications of the mind. If there is a real lived peace and love, then more power to ya, but if there is not, then that's the truth 'as it is for' you.


Quote:
But then we get a bunch of "masters" who supposedly have given up being a "person" and they are worshiped as a special person. Tell me how to be like you master! The master should answer, stop being a you, just be! No one is lacking in love, we are just pre-occupied with other stuff that covers it up in ourselves.




I think the master would say, You are as you are and there's nothing you can do about it. Many people will find that disarming because all their lives they've been told to be better, make something of yourself, be somebody and so forth, and then they got into ND nonsense and were told to be no one. No one ever said to them that you are just as you are and nothing needs to be done about it. "This" Is how you are.
__________________
Radiate boundless love towards the entire world ~ Buddha
Reply With Quote
  #253  
Old 09-05-2020, 08:14 AM
winter light winter light is offline
Experiencer
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 305
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
I think the master would say, You are as you are and there's nothing you can do about it. Many people will find that disarming because all their lives they've been told to be better, make something of yourself, be somebody and so forth, and then they got into ND nonsense and were told to be no one. No one ever said to them that you are just as you are and nothing needs to be done about it. "This" Is how you are.
The saying I heard long ago about this was "You have to be a somebody before you can be a nobody." It gets confusing when one misunderstands where someone else is in their process when they speak. Part of the problem I think comes from the self who is trying to understand. And part of the problem comes from unawareness of the speaker who is not yet fully grounded in their own being.

I usually see that kind of unawareness projected as a judgement. It is hard to watch and typically unwise to respond to directly unless I am grounded well myself. An unconscious person may also startle and lash out if a response is too direct. And there is risk that I would be vulnerable to perpetuating the suffering further by projecting my own unconscious judgements.

Returning to awareness of my breathing, as you have said in the past, is the best remedy when I find myself caught in this type of dilemma.
Reply With Quote
  #254  
Old 09-05-2020, 08:28 AM
Phaelyn Phaelyn is offline
Deactivated Account
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 1,007
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
I think it's very easy to say, but upon attempting it you'll be unable

If you are taking a vacation from yourself, who or what would be attempting something?
Reply With Quote
  #255  
Old 09-05-2020, 09:20 AM
Gem Gem is offline
Master
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 22,073
  Gem's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaelyn
If you are taking a vacation from yourself, who or what would be attempting something?




I suppose I could just say 'if not...' but all ifs are speculative, and that's fine in theory, but where truth is concerned, there is no if. There is only an 'is'. So the point is not an 'if' pertaining to the speculations, but since there are various individual states which are momentarily changing, what is, as it is, in way individuals' experience it, is unlike another individual's in the same way as each moment is unlike any other.
__________________
Radiate boundless love towards the entire world ~ Buddha
Reply With Quote
  #256  
Old 09-05-2020, 09:34 AM
Gem Gem is offline
Master
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 22,073
  Gem's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by winter light
The saying I heard long ago about this was "You have to be a somebody before you can be a nobody."


That sounds a bit smarty pants to me



Quote:
It gets confusing when one misunderstands where someone else is in their process when they speak.


Indeed.



Quote:
Part of the problem I think comes from the self who is trying to understand. And part of the problem comes from unawareness of the speaker who is not yet fully grounded in their own being.


Totally.


Quote:
I usually see that kind of unawareness projected as a judgement.




It certainly often is.


Quote:
It is hard to watch and typically unwise to respond to directly unless I am grounded well myself.


That's a great idea.


Quote:
An unconscious person may also startle and lash out if a response is too direct. And there is risk that I would be vulnerable to perpetuating the suffering further by projecting my own unconscious judgements.


True. I belive we should be careful about inciting reactivity in others, let alone intending to.


Quote:
Returning to awareness of my breathing, as you have said in the past, is the best remedy when I find myself caught in this type of dilemma.




I find it it very useful, too.


Well said, and good reminders.
__________________
Radiate boundless love towards the entire world ~ Buddha
Reply With Quote
  #257  
Old 09-05-2020, 04:56 PM
Phaelyn Phaelyn is offline
Deactivated Account
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 1,007
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
I suppose I could just say 'if not...' but all ifs are speculative, and that's fine in theory, but where truth is concerned, there is no if.

Of course there are ifs.

If I am aware a low tree branch is there on the trail I am walking on, I duck and pass under it. If I am not aware it is there, I hit my head on it. One "if" results in unnecessary pain and suffering, one does not. The "ifs" are potential states of awareness I can be in, in any given moment, and the resulting effects or actions these states result in.

In the same way, if I am aware I can be here now free of my conditioning, I will not create various conflicts and suffering that I would if I am not aware I can be free of such things.

What I am aware of or not aware of, what I understand or don't understand, changes everything. It changes how I experience and perceive now. It changes what I produce or project outward into this now. It changes what I am identifying with and therefore what I am in this now.

Now what you may be focusing on is the "how." If I am one way, unaware, conditioned, how do I become the other? What is ultimately responsible for me being one or the other? Can one willfully choose which one I am? Is something else responsible for which state I am in in any given moment?

The process is pretty simple. We become aware of suffering, aware of something we don't like, we seek a way to end this suffering or to get rid of or eliminate something we don't like.

We hit our head on a low tree branch we are unaware of, we suffer, we then are aware it is there and do what we need to do to not hit our head on it anymore. The suffering which was a result of unawareness of a particular thing, triggers us becoming more aware. When we are aware of a cause of our suffering, we end it. This basic process is all there is to it, though it can become very subtle and deep as we get into more subtle forms of suffering that are a result of our unawareness of various things.

For example, you ended that one post with "No one ever said to them that you are just as you are and nothing needs to be done about it" meaning you found suffering in trying to become something other that what you are and so you ended it.

A more subtle layer to that is something was done about "it." It was the conflict, (suffering) in not accepting things as they are, and what was the result of this suffering and the drive to end it was an understanding or awareness I can be here now without this conflict by dropping this idea of self judgement and this idea I should or need to be or become something other than what is. After all, what I am in any given moment is not defined by an idea, or a thought, even if such things come from myself, as "myself" is not either of these things or a product of them, unless I subconsciously am identifying with them as self which means a lack of awareness is there, which means I have not identified this particular cause or subtle form of suffering.

One can be walking on that trail and be being bit by some very small insect one is not aware of so nothing is done about that cause of suffering as we are only vaguely aware it is there. It's not until the results of the bites become obvious to us that we can do something about the cause. Many teachers try to point out the cause, but listeners can't understand or see yet the actual cause. They are unable to see or understand the small insects yet...eventually they will. That moment of insight, "ah it's these little bugs! I was not aware they were there! Now I can do something about them."
Reply With Quote
  #258  
Old 09-05-2020, 05:03 PM
sentient sentient is offline
Master
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,243
  sentient's Avatar
“Mindfulness - a simple practice, yet finely nuanced” ….

Is mindfulness practice going back to Buddhist philosophy or is it a program created out of Buddhist philosophy - a kind of offshoot suitable/catering for the Western audiences?

Insight Meditation Society - Joseph Goldstein - "Mindfulness: What it is and is Not":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Uqoxo_jPXQ

“Black Labrador dogs living in the present – but not being mindful.” Obviously he hasn’t met Dingoes!

"Observing power of the mind ….. What is a thought?"
Well, within the empty spaciousness of awareness - if one is psychic, one needs to be very clear where thoughts are coming from, from where they have arisen. Pure insights also crystallize as thoughts, and those are important.

“Observing experience through the conditioned filters of desire or aversion or delusion”.
But then again, if we enter into ‘not knowing’ - letting reality itself display ‘what is’, there is no desire, aversion nor ignorance in it.

“Intentionality”….. Well, depends on what was “shown” ….

“What is the attitude of my mind” ……
I can’t see a problem with expecting the unexpected …

*

Perhaps this Mindfulness could be called “Mindfulness program Witnesses” rather than "Insight Meditators" ……because of the same concepts and wording …..

*

Unbiased thoughts on pros and cons?

My view is no longer unbiased.

*
Reply With Quote
  #259  
Old 09-05-2020, 05:41 PM
Phaelyn Phaelyn is offline
Deactivated Account
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 1,007
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sentient
Unbiased thoughts on pros and cons?

My view is no longer unbiased.

*

If I am in mindfulness, it's a bit like someone pointing to a box of ideas (the box is just in their heads) and then asking an opinion about something within that box. For me to answer, I have to go to the box of ideas in my head. But since I am in mindfulness, I have no interest in imagined mental content in this now, so no interest in what is in my box of ideas and no interest in looking in the box for something.

But I just posted that didn't I? So didn't I just go into my box of ideas? My guess, as to an answer to that, is thought has two possible sources or causes of it being generated by the brain.

One source is general unconscious experience. So I am experiencing something and a thought comes from the brain, is a product of the brain in response to what I am experiencing. I am normally in a general state of un-awareness, or not being "mindfulness" or what that word refers to, so when the brain produces a thought and I become aware of that thought, I generally accept it as true or as mine. Somebody cuts in front of me on the freeway, the thought comes, "that guy is a *&$%$" I go with that thought get angry....accept more thoughts and get into road rage mode....

The other potential source or cause generating thought is not unconscious experience, the cause is awareness. I am aware of something and use thought to conceptualize or communicate it. So thought here is operating differently. My relationship with it is different. It is being used differently. So I am in mindfulness mode, somebody cuts me off on the freeway, the thought comes, "that other driver is not very aware" and no anger comes. The thought was a result of my awareness, not just an automatic response from my brain without "my" input. Thought can be a response from our animal brain, our conditioning, our habits and patterns or it can be a tool of consciousness, awareness, and understanding.
Reply With Quote
  #260  
Old 09-05-2020, 11:56 PM
sentient sentient is offline
Master
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,243
  sentient's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaelyn
If I am in mindfulness, it's a bit like someone pointing to a box of ideas (the box is just in their heads) and then asking an opinion about something within that box. For me to answer, I have to go to the box of ideas in my head. But since I am in mindfulness, I have no interest in imagined mental content in this now, so no interest in what is in my box of ideas and no interest in looking in the box for something.

You do have a creative mind that sprouteh into many directions ….
Thinking can also be a tool to create your own private conscious investigation direction …. like turning your own insights into your own mantras to guide your focus ….

I’ll use your box idea ….
There is that saying “Don't buy a pig in a poke”.

If one’s practice is coming from Insight Meditation ‘Sangha’ which has embraced Joseph Goldstein’s method of Mindfulness and his box of Buddhist teachings, why not say so, why veil it, why put the pig in the bag?

I got most of my Buddhist teachings from the controversial Trungpa's books, and I still think what he said is great!

Just like Jehovah’s Witness I’d probably recite Trungpa’s take on mindfulness-in-action like a tape-recorder, but I can’t remember what he said.
It was so very early on - I did put his 'formula' into action though and those mindfulness meditation's produced insights led me onto a path/learning curve of my own. And I don’t think that Trungpa gave ready-made insights in the box for the followers to recite further down the line as their own either.

Plus I do remember a moment in time, when (just like Trungpa had said …. which was something like that the method one uses to purify is like soap – at some time one needs to wash the soap off as well – because at some point the method itself becomes the defilement).

Well, I do have a copy of Trungpa’s book. Wonder how I do feel about it now (?)

But back to pros and cons of mindfulness.

On the positive, well there are plenty of Joseph Goldstein’s videos on the youtube.

On the negative side, there are some articles on can read:
https://www.afr.com/life-and-luxury/...0170827-gy4ygo

https://www.brown.edu/research/labs/...od%20thing.pdf

*
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:26 AM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) Spiritual Forums