A new revelation to me

[ThatMan]

So I was watching a scene from the movie Jesus of Nazareth when I heard these words: "They will get into the Kingdom of Heaven before you do"; this was Jesus saying these words to the pharisees, telling them, that those who do the will of God will get into the Kingdom of Heaven and not those who only say Yes to God. Then it struck me, is this a real verse, is this actually based on the scriptures so I did some research:

Matthew 21:23 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

This is from a parable, read the entire Matthew 21 to get a better picture, but do you notice something here: Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

So evern the pharisees will eventually enter the Kingdom of Heaven but how can this be... even after His death, resurrection and ascension, the pharisees did not change and some dozens years later nothing really changed, what was actually Jesus saying?

To me it sounds as if Jesus told them that they will eventually get into the Kingdom of Heaven, but those who they used to consider unclean ( so to say ), the publicans and the harolts, would enter into the Kingdom before them, in other words, they will be the first who enter and those who are the first ( those who think they are already there ), will be the last.

This "before you" sound as if they are also going to enter into the Kingdom, why He simply did not said that they are not going to get there at all unless they not only say Yes but actually do the will of God?

Let's use a real life examples:

They will enter into the football stadium before you.
Those who take the train will get into the school before you.
Those who do the will of God will get into the Kingdom of Heaven before you, those who do not do the will of God.

You will not use this expression in real life unless you also suggest that even those who are late ( last ) are also going to get into a place.

I always use real life examples to get a better picture of the scriptures, you see.

Tell me your opinion please.

[davidmartin]

I checked the Greek for you TM, you're right
The same word προάγω 'go before' is used else where, eg "And straightway Jesus constrained his disciples to get into a ship, and to go before him unto the other side"

It seems it could also be taken in the sense, 'to go before' with the publicans and harlots 'leading the way' in front as well, this might even be the better meaning I don't know

i think this is an early saying as it doesn't fit so well with the hell stuff in matthew which i feel is kind of later addition, but that's just me

[ThatMan]

Originally Posted by davidmartin

I checked the Greek for you TM, you're right
The same word προάγω 'go before' is used else where, eg "And straightway Jesus constrained his disciples to get into a ship, and to go before him unto the other side"

It seems it could also be taken in the sense, 'to go before' with the publicans and harlots 'leading the way' in front as well, this might even be the better meaning I don't know

i think this is an early saying as it doesn't fit so well with the hell stuff in matthew which i feel is kind of later addition, but that's just me

@davidmartin I see, but look at that verse you provided, they go before Him and He would also follow them later, just as I said, everybody gets there in the end.

Thank you for looking at the actual word in Greek, I felt no need to do this because I was sure of my finding, you see, recently I started to see things that nobody else has ever seen in scriptures, it's like an "Aha!" moment.

I have showed in that post with the law an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth that was not actually by divine inspiration, I wonder how many other things are not actually by divine inspiration.

I only want to provide the true version of scriptures so that all people can actually free themselves while reading the scriptures, I feel that the churches have enslaved people, keeping them away from the truth, being them the only source of truth.

[davidmartin]

yes amen to that! glad you are having this experience with scripture

I think that if we really knew how divine inspiration worked we'd probably be a little shocked, well maybe some more than others!

the church structure grew up really fast around the young faith, and the folks who knew him did their best to get the truth into it, before others who did not know him came along. Mary was key to this because I think she understood that the new is really just the old in it's original form

[Hawaiian Dreams]

Interesting post. This brings about another question... what does the Bible say about reincarnation? I'm taking a spirituality class and was taught that there are past lives and therefore reincarnation.

If this does exist, then it would make sense to explain that the pharisees and teachers of the law will get there eventually... but maybe not in this life. Maybe they are less developed spiritually and therefore God knows that they will enter later than even those they look upon lowly.

What do you think?

[davidmartin]

Hawaiian, everyone wants to know this :)
re-incarnation is one possibility but also things we can't conceive of or imagine
that's why i don't myself fix to one belief on this but just leave it up to however it works and trust, the bible basically just says to trust without knowing on God's goodness on this mystery

I do not believe in a literal hell at all, and most people who get well into their spirituality question it before too long as it has aspects that make no sense. Other's do believe in it. It's a personal choice i guess

So the bible doesn't dwell on re-incarnation although some verses can seem friendly to it. Some gnostic Christians believed in it, a few theologians considered it over the years, some Jews consider it possible

Finding peace in this life is more important than knowing how the next one works, what your beliefs on afterlife or beforelife are... not so important

ThatMan

Hot or cold and spewing out lukewarm, came to mind.
So I guess I am saying in Johns Revelation Christ despised the lukewarm or wishy-washy
people like those that use God for their own lusts.(Greed and or Power where others suffer)

I think many cultures and religions talk of a journey after crossing over.
I have also heard of NDE-ers say they have seen schools where Spirits had to be educated
before moving on to new Spiritual realms.
Then there is the Catholic purgatory.
Surely God Loves all and does not want to loose one soul. I don't think it is
cut and dry like God judging, your in, your out. I believe in Mercy and Love.

[ThatMan]

Originally Posted by ImthatIm

ThatMan

Hot or cold and spewing out lukewarm, came to mind.
So I guess I am saying in Johns Revelation Christ despised the lukewarm or wishy-washy
people like those that use God for their own lusts.(Greed and or Power where others suffer)

I think many cultures and religions talk of a journey after crossing over.
I have also heard of NDE-ers say they have seen schools where Spirits had to be educated
before moving on to new Spiritual realms.
Then there is the Catholic purgatory.
Surely God Loves all and does not want to loose one soul. I don't think it is
cut and dry like God judging, your in, your out. I believe in Mercy and Love.

I would say that all evil that ever happened, happens or will ever happen, happens out of ignorance, the awareness of people is too low to understand the repercussions of their actions.

Last night I saw some documentaries about prisons and while looking at those prisoners talking about their lives and so on, something struke me, they simple don't have enough awareness to understand their actions.... There was this mafia guy who murdered many people and the relatives of those people were waiting for him to get out only to be murdered by them, anyway, he was talking about how God is going to protect him and if this does not happen, he will simply retaliate back, he had not even the slightest idea of what was he really talking about... ignorance caused by lack of awarenesss..

The more awareness a man has, the more suffering he/she sees in the world and the more he/she wants to make a change.
A low awareness usually leads to many many bad things.

[Molearner]

Originally Posted by ThatMan

So I was watching a scene from the movie Jesus of Nazareth when I heard these words: "They will get into the Kingdom of Heaven before you do"; this was Jesus saying these words to the pharisees, telling them, that those who do the will of God will get into the Kingdom of Heaven and not those who only say Yes to God. Then it struck me, is this a real verse, is this actually based on the scriptures so I did some research:

Matthew 21:23 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

This is from a parable, read the entire Matthew 21 to get a better picture, but do you notice something here: Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

So evern the pharisees will eventually enter the Kingdom of Heaven but how can this be... even after His death, resurrection and ascension, the pharisees did not change and some dozens years later nothing really changed, what was actually Jesus saying?

To me it sounds as if Jesus told them that they will eventually get into the Kingdom of Heaven, but those who they used to consider unclean ( so to say ), the publicans and the harolts, would enter into the Kingdom before them, in other words, they will be the first who enter and those who are the first ( those who think they are already there ), will be the last.

This "before you" sound as if they are also going to enter into the Kingdom, why He simply did not said that they are not going to get there at all unless they not only say Yes but actually do the will of God?

Let's use a real life examples:

They will enter into the football stadium before you.
Those who take the train will get into the school before you.
Those who do the will of God will get into the Kingdom of Heaven before you, those who do not do the will of God.

You will not use this expression in real life unless you also suggest that even those who are late ( last ) are also going to get into a place.

I always use real life examples to get a better picture of the scriptures, you see.

Tell me your opinion please.

ThatMan,

An interesting presentation....:) Here is my opinion: Check out the last verse of the scripture story you referenced.....Matthew 21:32....."And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him". The key word here is 'repent'. Basically this mirrors the parable of the tax collector and the Pharisee....Luke 18:9-14. In short, the Pharisee bragged about his adherence to the law. The tax collector, on the other hand, in his prayer said...."God, have mercy on me, a sinner". Jesus commended the tax collector and said that he(the tax collector) would be exalted for humbling himself and that the Pharisee who exalted himself would be humbled.

In effect, the tax collector repented by his own admission....he recognized his sin and threw himself on the mercy of God. The Pharisee, in his pride, showed no recognition of any sin or shortcoming. This speaks directly to the first and last paradox that caught your attention. Yes, your scripture does indicate that the Pharisee will eventually enter the kingdom. The scripture that indicates this possibility to me is found in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15. The key verse here is vs. 15....."If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames". I would suggest considering that 'he himself' can refer to the Pharisee(or any of us that are reluctant to repent).

I like real life examples also. Consider this: Perfectly healthy people do not get ambulance rides to the hospital. It is, however, that ride to the hospital that saves the afflicted. Metaphorically they are taken to the Great Physician and they are saved. The key thing in this little scenario is not the ambulance or even the doctor. Instead, it is the one who recognizes that he is sick and makes the call to place himself at the mercy of the one who can heal. This recognition of sickness can be likened to being an act of repentance. We are told by scripture that we are delusional if we believe that we are without sin. There is a void within all of us that God is prepared to address. Everything proceeds from the point of calling on him.

[FallingLeaves]

there was another related thing said I think in the old testament:

the last shall be first, and many of the first shall be last

the ordering is important because ordering from first to last also implies relative importance of the things being ordered. First, very important. Last, not very important.

there are other related verses about pride versus humility that shed more light on this situation.