CONCORDE crash and Karma

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Hey there 7L


Yeah I saw the post but it's going to take me a little longer than a couple of minutes to reply, and having a train of thought interrupted when it's full steam ahead is a pain nowadays because it takes longer to get steamed up. Thankfully there's the Calmer Sutra to indulge in.

GS that's totally fine and not a problem...oh and here's your morning cuppa
I will look forward to your thoughts whenever you get a mo

Peace & blessing
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Hey :)

As the saying goes you have to be in it to win it lol ...

There is so much that makes sense after the event or after the physical experience has ended but in a way it's a little too late by then, but it can't be helped in many instances because there simply isn't the awareness present at the time of asking .

Hey Dazza :) Hahaha...yes, for certain, this is so true, that much only comes together at a given critical moment and not before then. Sometimes many things must come to light or be understood before we as individuals can move forward in certain ways. This is essentially the journey of our souls...on the one hand, what can we do in the midst of any one lifetime? Often, not much except to choose light, love, and the higher ground as best we can in the moment. But there is a point on our paths in some lifetime or lifetimes, where we will begin to gain access to all our own accumulated wisdom.

For many of us, that lifetime is THIS lifetime I think that's actually really exciting and profound...even though we're all still dealing with our daily stuff, it's the realisation that actually this long-term stuff is ALSO our daily stuff that's with us in every moment once we awaken, LOL. And then the question becomes, are we willing and able to take a much deeper and more profound level of responsibility within our selves and outwardly in our relationships (and by extension in our societies), now that we know who we are and also how important and singular every other soul is?

The journey and the questions become much more immediate and REAL at this point...and that's why, like you and many others, I like to put the questions back out there. Because I get that everyone matters and that what everyone thinks and feels also matters. It's such an interwoven tapestry.

This is why as you and I and many know to understand that peeps come back time and time again until the levels of awareness are present in order to balance the books within experience of life .. and within these experiences one begins to understand the nature of self in reflection of all things ..

I agree...there's nothing like walking a mile in everyone's moccasins as you, and you, and you, and you....LOL!!! But mostly, that is, once we are able to consciously access and integrate all these lifetimes and experiences, and the feelings and perspectives and the wisdom that they each contribute.

For example...one that would affect 100% of humanity right now...if most men and women recalled at least some other lifetimes lived as both men and women. I dp remember quite a lot of many of my past lives as both men and women. I feel that, speaking from my own experiences, it could only bring a lot more compassion, balance, and deep, penetrating insight to most individual lived experiences whilst here in the body. Also to human societies and to many relationship paradigms which tend to be really quite imbalanced and rather rigid and suffocating. Just overflowing with rubbish really

What's been floating to the top at the mo with you on your soul journey of remembrance and integration of late or in recent months or years? Of course, no pressure to share. Keeping it very general is usually what I do (like above) so just asking along those lines ;)

Taking responsibility or ownership as you put it is a big thing as things go and it sounds easier said than done for if everyone lived by this self measure the world would be a different place than it is now .

x daz x

You got that right. Taking ownership, or being and doing in the moment with presence, with awareness -- and certainly being able to speak to our own accountability -- is all we are ever called to do in the moment. That is, simply put, the entirety of our lives. Of any life and of all our lives.

Western society is a rather bloody mess at the mo and it's not down to the pursuit of greater humanitarian ideals, as that bit is actually quite nice and should be maintained. No, it's down to the denial and the cynicism (both), regarding how & where we're actually living, which make for a deep lack of authenticity as to the intent and thought behind our words & deeds. We act out but put it down to mainstream norms (which if true is just another form of the same sickness), or even some holy creed or some greater humanitarian good. I'm using you or screwing you over but hey it's socially normative or it's my religion or it's our form of economy/government...etc.

If where we are is predation, manipulation, and amoral utilitarianism, whether thieving or wh*ring or what have ye...and we come out and own that quite openly day-to-day, no pretense...then THAT is when we have actually taken the first really massive step toward awakening.

But as you say, it's clear that's largely still TBD by the vast majority of folks...or yes, we'd begin to see movement toward a very different reality, and massive push-back against any forces that didn't want to allow for that movement. As some have said on other threads, 2020 is supposed to bring awareness to many who've till now turned away from self-reckoning and from a larger societal reckoning. I feel the new Age so strongly...and it's such a breath of fresh air...so I hope these trends do come to bear (fruit) much more strongly in the coming months.

Peace & blessings Teds
7L

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

So GS...you noted a future self influencing a past self and a false memory. But -- and I know this is a mind-bender -- I think what you may be recalling is from an instance of the universe that no longer exists. And since lucky you...you still recalled that key decision point or outcome from a future time in a "place" that no longer exists (or has been "overwritten")...you were able to choose differently in this go-round.

I know many of us do recall Mandela dying in prison and the entire free elections in SA held in his honour several years later. That instance of spacetime (the universe) is gone now and apparently "never happened" in this instance. And so things are somewhat different in this place. I am a smidge taller, for one, growing around 2" as an adult post-Mandela change whilst most other folks have stayed the same...so hey I got at least one concrete thing out of all this total reinstantiation thing Folks who haven't seen me in 15-20 years are often struck by it. Would it have happened regardless? Is it connected to all the healing work I've done since then? Who knows, but in retrospect, it's odd and I can only say it happened here...in this version of reality. If nothing else, it points to just how fluid the tapestry of our reality still is. But my consciousness is still me and still here...as is yours. So in a sense, there are many outcomes which occurred one way elsewhere (and now will seem like false or alternate memories) but which are still open to choice here. I will say this...it seems like deja vu happens less often now which may mean we have largely moved past the place of overlapping (overwritten) outcomes and have come back to (per usual) the place of unwritten outcomes, for which we must take total ownership. In the moment, it still always boils down to taking choices...to ownership and to taking conscious decisions.

I don't know if it was a false memory or not. I like to be as objective as possible before taking things on board because very often what some might call a Spiritual experience is nothing more than how the brain/mind works for everybody. I am conscious of what I felt as a youngster so I've taken that with me through time. Regardless of whether or not the moment has been written over I still have that consciousness. Future time also implies a linear time-frame and as far as our consciousness is concerned, time is linear. Does that mean we can't become conscious of non-linear time?

As to other outcomes, I don't know what they are because I'm only conscious of one reality.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Very movingly said. Quite true. The thing is to move past obstruction and resistance within ourselves and accept the truth of this. And that is not always easily, kindly, or smoothly done. Hence the stuff of life, and of karma, as this whole thread notes. Because the processing and growth that accrues to the eternal soul or consciousness is done here, in this physical realm...and that's why we come back. We come back because there's nothing for it, LOL...

Thank you.


The only relevant question for me here is, if I believe there is such a thing as karma then what are the reasons for that? I can come up with a few other Spiritual 'truths' that conflict with karma, not to mention the ones that I've already came up with in this thread - the main one for me being non-linear time. I still don't know how karma sits with the concept that we chose our fates before we came here, and part of that choice came from the projection of possible timelines.

Isn't Spirit supposed to be beyond any causal plane, and isn't karma causality? In the OP the plane crashed because cheaper materials were used, isn't that just a long list of cause and effect over linear time?

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by Molearner

Furthermore, if anyone gives credence to my assumption that karma has collateral damage then does karma bear any similarity to the concept of original sin ?

Interesting observation.

[BigJohn]

[quote=Molearner]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Wow gents I just saw this thread has got onto quite an interesting discussion of karma, timelines, and conscious choices.
I hope I am not too late to the party to make a few comments.

/QUOTE]

7luminaries,

This is not to address any of your points I am just sharing your introduction by joining the party.....perhaps too late....:)

Perhaps some posters can address my question about karma. What about the collateral damage of karma ? It seems when discussions of karma are presented they are more in the vein of "what happens to me if I do this or that ?" But whatever happens to me as a result of karma seems to should also affect a multitude of people. If I was the first one to get the corona virus perhaps that was a result of karma......but if I spread that virus to the rest of the world is that something in their karma that allowed them to be exposed to it ?

Hard to wrap my mind around that. Maybe someone can address this.

Are you saying you could be a carrier and spread the virus to others without getting hurt yourself?

Originally Posted by God-Like

Hey :)

Hi there Daz

Originally Posted by God-Like

Well karma as we have said is just a word that doesn't quite fit the bill in such a way where one requires the awareness had of the bigger picture . If you on one level put an ice lolly out in the sun then it's going to melt likewise if you create suffering with ill intent towards another then that will create an energy within you that will manifest in reflection of that same energy in some shape or form . Peeps can say there is an external source at play here that has created the natural laws or you can say God is all things including that which abides by them and experiences them . Another way to put it across is that when an open hearted loving peep see's their loved one's in turmoil they automatically reach out to them and try and help them . You could say what is this supernatural force that makes me feel this way and makes me respond in this way when it is simply the way it is based upon your current sense of self and other's in awareness . Without an emotional body one would not be able to be emotional, without certain hormonal responses and tear ducts we would not be able to cry at life, so in a way we have to base how we feel and why we do things from where we stand but encompassing the bigger picture also .

Our emotions are the result of our perceptions, and our perceptions are a result of the kind of person we are - keeping it very simple. If I'm a nasty person I could enjoy watching you bawling your eyes out so if that's karma, what 'decides' if I console you or not?

Originally Posted by God-Like

We are both in agreement that the physical - earth- plane / dimension is governed by it's own laws and some become null and void in other dimensions . How I like to see it however is it all about you . I remember at a time of deep suffering my mum, god bless her would say that I have created this suffering, it is my responsibility, it's no good blaming this or that or him or her, it all down to me at the deepest of levels . Inner peace, inner joy, inner love is only down to you to attain and this is why the universe is centred around you . There is only you . What comes up in life that is experienced is all about you that is being reflected off of every-one-thing else .

In that we're very much in agreement too.

Originally Posted by God-Like

I am not sure in regards to your question 'What is the nature of karma'? is going to be answered correctly because there isn't really going to be a one type of answer that even defines karma in a way that will give it justice . In one way some refer to karma-less peeps as those that do God's will because it no longer becomes personal in nature for what one does and that in itself I would say sheds some light on the nature of karma in my eyes because the individual self is the homing beacon, it is the magnet, it is the hub of experience and like said reflects my thoughts on there is only you at the centre of the universe . So if for examples sake there is an energy with a peep that is consumed with guilt on some level, then the universe will always reflect upon that energy to certain degrees . If you work from a place where there is only you then you will see how this works .. This touches on the perceptional aspects that you asked about for there requires perception for karma to be played out . There requires reflection for karma to be played out otherwise you will not be able to relate the experience of what is happening to 'you' .

So if karma can't be explained in a way that will do it justice what does that mean? If it can't really be explained then it becomes perceptual rather than actual. And what about those karma-less peeps? Don't they exist on the same causal plane as everybody else that has karma or are the outside the natural laws and therefore an exception? If they are an exception, who decides?

Originally Posted by God-Like

Transmuting karma is about changing the nature of it and it only works if one is totally sincere in regards to purifying oneself and loving oneself.

This is why you can get peeps sit on the mountain for years and not get anywhere, you can have meditators and yoga practitioners that are simply going through the motions and not connecting so to speak .

In regards to the tongue being poked out in relation to karma, yet again it boils down to intent doesn't it and it boils down to the energy behind the scenes, I can laugh out loud at videos on 'you've been framed' where peeps fall over or have a football hit them in the face, where is the intent to be cruel here? Where is the intent to make someone feel like a fool?

It is about intent and truth and justice for you can use a sword and cut out other's wicked tongues in such a way where the truth needs to be heard or recognised, you see for some a spiritual dude perhaps should always turn the other cheek and be seen to be sweetness and light, but the same can be said for those that stand their ground and be strong in regards to what is true .. There is no one formula here, but you can have two peeps doing the same thing/s and one would be creating karma and one would not .

Being true to oneself is key as always and being true to oneself has many levels to it and this is somewhat a grey area because one needs to know self in it's truer sense in order to have a true expression lol .

If you're going into transmuting karma and purifying oneself, that just doesn't work for me because then it becomes..... something else, frankly. Doris Stokes said that karma is reincarnating as a bad guy in one Lifetime then reincarnating as a good guy in another, that way the Soul experiences both sides of the coin. I'm not sure I agree but within the context of this plane of existence i can understand that for Spirit it's an experience. As for loving oneself, I'm quite happy with that too because it seems to be a theme that's running through my own Life right now but I wouldn't call that karma though. I chose that as a Life's Purpose and if the accounts that I've read are true, then I chose that particular series of events.

I'll agree with you about the intent and the energy behind the scenes,as I've mentioned before that's into kamma-vipaka country or the results of intention. That I can understand from an energetic perspective too.

I'm a lateral thinker, Daz. That means I don't create thinking patterns too quickly and when I do, I can completely change the pattern to accommodate new information. I also put my beliefs into a relationship with so many other things, and what also 'colours' them is my questioning of them. I like to bring in so many other aspects and at the same time, I'm aware of how beliefs are processed from an ego (the Jungian one, by the way) and cognitive perspective. I also tend to listen to my instincts and my brain/mind not so much because I'm very aware of how they create reality. Karma just doesn't sit right with me, it doesn't resonate and there are so many other factors that can affect karma.

This is me being true to myself, it just doesn't feel right. Someone once said to me, "Change the word, change the paradigm." Karma is not the word and I think I'm looking for it. And thanks for your time and effort.

Originally Posted by God-Like

Beyond karma would be beyond individual intent .

So we are God-like after all?

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Hi there Daz

Our emotions are the result of our perceptions, and our perceptions are a result of the kind of person we are - keeping it very simple. If I'm a nasty person I could enjoy watching you bawling your eyes out so if that's karma, what 'decides' if I console you or not?

In that we're very much in agreement too.

So if karma can't be explained in a way that will do it justice what does that mean? If it can't really be explained then it becomes perceptual rather than actual. And what about those karma-less peeps? Don't they exist on the same causal plane as everybody else that has karma or are the outside the natural laws and therefore an exception? If they are an exception, who decides?

If you're going into transmuting karma and purifying oneself, that just doesn't work for me because then it becomes..... something else, frankly. Doris Stokes said that karma is reincarnating as a bad guy in one Lifetime then reincarnating as a good guy in another, that way the Soul experiences both sides of the coin. I'm not sure I agree but within the context of this plane of existence i can understand that for Spirit it's an experience. As for loving oneself, I'm quite happy with that too because it seems to be a theme that's running through my own Life right now but I wouldn't call that karma though. I chose that as a Life's Purpose and if the accounts that I've read are true, then I chose that particular series of events.

Hey ;)

Sometimes words and explanations fall short of the mark and won’t capture what is in motion and in effect, like said one has to have awareness of the bigger picture at hand in order to fully understand why one experiences what they do . My understanding of karma-less peeps derives through the absence of self and mind in such a way where any associations had that relate to self must have a knock on effect in relation to what is experienced and for reasons why ..

When you get a peep functioning with a minimal sense of self then what would their true nature be and reflect? This is why I said a while back that an enlightened being wouldn’t intentionally kill a fly, so if an enlightened peep walked around the earth expressing pure love in reflection their higher self or God for use of a better word, then ‘bad’ karma would never be accumulated .

Originally Posted by Greenslade

I'll agree with you about the intent and the energy behind the scenes,as I've mentioned before that's into kamma-vipaka country or the results of intention. That I can understand from an energetic perspective too.

I'm a lateral thinker, Daz. That means I don't create thinking patterns too quickly and when I do, I can completely change the pattern to accommodate new information. I also put my beliefs into a relationship with so many other things, and what also 'colours' them is my questioning of them. I like to bring in so many other aspects and at the same time, I'm aware of how beliefs are processed from an ego (the Jungian one, by the way) and cognitive perspective. I also tend to listen to my instincts and my brain/mind not so much because I'm very aware of how they create reality. Karma just doesn't sit right with me, it doesn't resonate and there are so many other factors that can affect karma.

This is me being true to myself, it just doesn't feel right. Someone once said to me, "Change the word, change the paradigm." Karma is not the word and I think I'm looking for it. And thanks for your time and effort.

So we are God-like after all?

If you look at water that changes form and turns into ice or a gas then just relate that change in form with transmuting karma in it’s own way .. As a healer it’s no different when I work on inflammation and change the nature of the energy that is present into something else . Transformation, alchemy all involve a change in state or form or structure to some degree .

When I did yoga and self enquiry / self healing work I was transmuting energy .. even healing other’s is healing self and transmuting karmic energy ..

Maybe karma in this way is best not to be seen as something tangible because it’s multidimensional and mutates in a way that can materialise / manifest in a million ways . Perhaps when we look at karma like this, it is something that is inherent within our d.n.a that is integrated within our self awareness like a blue print of sorts and simply changes with our thoughts and actions, similar to our auric field that on one level changes as often as the weather does .. it simply reacts and changes ..

Purification of it is an alchemic process that is key and I would say that is why there are millions of texts worldwide that touch upon the importance of transformation and purifying oneself .

One can work through karma in many ways and normally suffering is at the heart of it, but the energy of transmutation through yoga, meditation, forgiving, helping other’s amongst other things actually works from my experience ..

I have spoken in great depth before regarding my awareness of a past life where it had effected me greatly in this lifetime . I am sure if my process worked for me it can work for other’s too .


x dazzle x

[7luminaries]

Hey there Dazza...JIC I think you may have skipped over my post ...
Here's a bit I was throwing back over at you, for your thoughts....apologies if it got lost in the shuffle the 1st time through.

I agree...there's nothing like walking a mile in everyone's moccasins as you, and you, and you, and you....LOL!!! But mostly, that is, once we are able to consciously access and integrate all these lifetimes and experiences, and the feelings and perspectives and the wisdom that they each contribute.

For example...one that would affect 100% of humanity right now...if most men and women recalled at least some other lifetimes lived as both men and women.

I do remember quite a lot of many of my past lives as both men and women. I feel that, speaking from my own experiences, it could only bring a lot more compassion, balance, and deep, penetrating insight to most individual lived experiences whilst here in the body. Also to human societies and to many relationship paradigms which tend to be really quite imbalanced and rather rigid and suffocating. Just overflowing with rubbish really

What's been floating to the top at the mo with you on your soul journey of remembrance and integration of late or in recent months or years? Of course, no pressure to share. Keeping it very general is usually what I do (like above) so just asking along those lines ;)

Peace & blessings Teds
7L

[7luminaries]

Hey Daz, there was also another item. What are your thoughts on the below? I think this lifetime is the lifetime for many when we do begin to recall and integrate many key remembrances from other lives...and as you note to GS, they can have a profound effect on who we are in the moment.

What are your thoughts on how these things change us or guide us, and on what it means to us (or could mean) individually and to humanity as a whole?

For many of us, that lifetime is THIS lifetime I think that's actually really exciting and profound...even though we're all still dealing with our daily stuff, it's the realisation that actually this long-term stuff is ALSO our daily stuff that's with us in every moment once we awaken, LOL. And then the question becomes, are we willing and able to take a much deeper and more profound level of responsibility within our selves and outwardly in our relationships (and by extension in our societies), now that we know who we are and also how important and singular every other soul is?

The journey and the questions become much more immediate and REAL at this point...and that's why, like you and many others, I like to put the questions back out there. Because I get that everyone matters and that what everyone thinks and feels also matters. It's such an interwoven tapestry.

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by BigJohn

Are you saying you could be a carrier and spread the virus to others without getting hurt yourself?

BigJ, hello there. Very simply put I just meant that one could hurt oneself and others both. It was very simply put but there are a range of potential ways in which one could be both knowingly or unknowingly more maximally responsible. If one knows one was in the vicinity and was likely exposed but ignores the quarantine, then it's more on them than if they observed a greater care for others.

I love how the government threatened to shame ppl on social media "forever" if they just didn't feel like sticking to the quarantine coz really...this is the only thing that will work with many. Here in the West, you'd have folks totally shameless, very selfish, and not giving a fig about social media...but at least others could call the authorities if everyone knew to check FB or w/e for the mugshots or pics of the egregious offenders, hahahaha....

Peace & blessings
7L