The Inner Guru and the SatGuru

[Joe Mc]

I wanted to say something or ask a question perhaps discuss, the 'Guru', the inner Guru and the SatGuru. The inner Guru is present within us all as the Atman, the SatGuru is a manifestation of lets say Atman/Braham in human form, a liberated being, who has 'achieved' 'Moksha' or liberation. I read an article this morning which said that the devotee, follower or spiritual aspirant cannot achieve liberation without the Grace or guidance of the SatGuru, is this a popular view ? A fellow traveller once steered me towards the view that the Satguru was the inner Guru.

Anyway what I'm also concerned about is a kind of perfectionism which becomes a put down, perhaps it's present in people like Krishna Das and his relationship to Neem Karoli Baba, but im sure also it's my ignorance and lack of realisation when Krishna das places Neem Karoli Baba onto pedestals (and rightly so ) but the problem with that is it starts to read like ...all the bad is in the devotee and the good is in the Baba or Guru. In this respect the SatGuru becomes a kind of obstacle to realisation as he or she become the measure that can never be lived up to. And so even teachings or beliefs such as reincarnation are born in the sense that I can ..become self realised in my next lives etc.

Teachings such Advaita Vedanta and Non Duality have become very popular in the light of what they are saying. "That no-one " can give you self realisation apart from yourself that is.

Can anyone relate to what I've said here, or have any experiences of teachers or Gurus on the path and how it effected their own personal search for meaning or truth ? Did it defer their own destiny and finding out what their lives could mean in the context of a human life or did they find a lasting meaning and grace under the umbrella of a 'Guru' ?

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[HITESH SHAH]

Following a real Satguru , u may get a feeling of having problem with the self . However real Satguru demonstrates the solution lies in the laws and ways of God described in scriptures . He does not raise himself above others and definitely not above scriptures and scientific laws of life .

In the process devotee getting feeling that all goodness is within the Satguru is quite understandable but not however what 'Real Satguru' claims to have.

Sant Kabir has provided an excellent definition of Satguru in one of his doha.

गुरू गोविन्द दोऊ खड़े, काके लागूं पांय।
बलिहारी गुरू अपने गोविन्द दियो बताय।।

Seeker saw Guru and God . He got confused whom should he pay his obeisance / respects first - to God or to Guru .Here the answer is very dual meaning but very beautiful . Guru understood the seeker's confusion and showed / directed the seeker to pay obeisance to God .2nd interpretation is that seeker feels that it is only due to Guru that he got to understand the God and thereby first respect should go to Guru .

Technically no person is comparable to God in scale , intensity grandeur even in slightest measure except that both are made of same stuff like water of tides and water of sea. So real Guru always gives higher importance to God and His sciences above anything else (including self importance) .Guru which forgets this rule is no guru and certainly not satguru . A guru who is embodiment of this rule , is really satguru and every respect / obeisance offered to such Guru reaches the God eventually/directly.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

Seeker saw Guru and God . He got confused whom should he pay his obeisance / respects first - to God or to Guru .Here the answer is very dual meaning but very beautiful . Guru understood the seeker's confusion and showed / directed the seeker to pay obeisance to God .2nd interpretation is that seeker feels that it is only due to Guru that he got to understand the God and thereby first respect should go to Guru .

That story brings to mind a happening at my ashram years ago when some one presented the dilemma and gave the first answer.

He was followed by another speaker who told the exact same story with the other answer.

The first speaker seemed to be visibly upset about the direction of the dialogue until ..... my teacher finally intervened and said that both answers were correct.

[BlueElephant]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

I wanted to say something or ask a question perhaps discuss, the 'Guru', the inner Guru and the SatGuru. The inner Guru is present within us all as the Atman, the SatGuru is a manifestation of lets say Atman/Braham in human form, a liberated being, who has 'achieved' 'Moksha' or liberation. I read an article this morning which said that the devotee, follower or spiritual aspirant cannot achieve liberation without the Grace or guidance of the SatGuru, is this a popular view ? A fellow traveller once steered me towards the view that the Satguru was the inner Guru.

I like what you have written Joe, Thank you for posting this subject: I had great luck in relation to authentic Gurus and progressed quite rapidly on the path. For Spiritual Realization that is Intrinsic one does not "need" a Guru, however much it is helpful. No one is alone in this world and so however the "Guru" shows up in one's life: a book, an experience, a spiritual friend, hitting rock-bottom, the kind grace of a Holy person or their words, etc. can help greatly.

If one understands that there is more to Spiritual Realization and accomplishment than what is intrinsic to us as Atman, then one would seek an authentic Guru (Satguru).

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

Anyway what I'm also concerned about is a kind of perfectionism which becomes a put down, perhaps it's present in people like Krishna Das and his relationship to Neem Karoli Baba, but im sure also it's my ignorance and lack of realisation when Krishna das places Neem Karoli Baba onto pedestals (and rightly so ) but the problem with that is it starts to read like ...all the bad is in the devotee and the good is in the Baba or Guru. In this respect the SatGuru becomes a kind of obstacle to realisation as he or she become the measure that can never be lived up to. And so even teachings or beliefs such as reincarnation are born in the sense that I can ..become self realised in my next lives etc.

There is a perfectionist issue in Yoga/ Hinduism. It takes time to over come such things. I would also add that there are different types of Gurus as there are Paths and many of them secret, hidden, out of the main way, not recognized, and not known - where there is a different pattern. One where the Guru's wish and assistance is for the disciple to advance further than Him/Her. The Western world has not seen the variety that exists in mystic India, and if some of it is seen it is down-played for fear to discourage people from taking to the path is a wholesome manner.

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

Teachings such Advaita Vedanta and Non Duality have become very popular in the light of what they are saying. "That no-one " can give you self realisation apart from yourself that is.

If you mean the Neo-advaita - then yes; however, Traditional Advaita one need's the Guru. Why? to keep one on the straight path and not fall to subtle ego concerns, issues and desire fulfillment. Money Fame and Power - for which many have fallen. This is one of the great therapies a relationship with a Satguru holds, ego awareness and purification, etc etc. Keep on the Path.

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

Can anyone relate to what I've said here, or have any experiences of teachers or Gurus on the path and how it effected their own personal search for meaning or truth ? Did it defer their own destiny and finding out what their lives could mean in the context of a human life or did they find a lasting meaning and grace under the umbrella of a 'Guru' ?

Like I mentioned earlier, I have been very lucky to have lived with and studied with over ten fully-accomplished Satgurus. This was in the 70's and 80's mostly - all of them have passed on. I was able to do 14 years of full retreat practice and continue to experience inconceivable furtherance on the path. I was able to cut through many, many years (life-times??) of content and traveled the Path my main Guru put me on and fortold to me before he passed earthly existence. Nowadays, when I need Him, he appears to me and yes he appeared to me and graced me with the Advaitic Realization, but more importantly to Realization beyond Advaitic.

I hope this helps.

*stands up and applauses*

Originally Posted by BlueElephant

I like what you have written Joe, Thank you for posting this subject: I had great luck in relation to authentic Gurus and progressed quite rapidly on the path. For Spiritual Realization that is Intrinsic one does not "need" a Guru, however much it is helpful. No one is alone in this world and so however the "Guru" shows up in one's life: a book, an experience, a spiritual friend, hitting rock-bottom, the kind grace of a Holy person or their words, etc. can help greatly.

If one understands that there is more to Spiritual Realization and accomplishment than what is intrinsic to us as Atman, then one would seek an authentic Guru (Satguru).





There is a perfectionist issue in Yoga/ Hinduism. It takes time to over come such things. I would also add that there are different types of Gurus as there are Paths and many of them secret, hidden, out of the main way, not recognized, and not known - where there is a different pattern. One where the Guru's wish and assistance is for the disciple to advance further than Him/Her. The Western world has not seen the variety that exists in mystic India, and if some of it is seen it is down-played for fear to discourage people from taking to the path is a wholesome manner.





If you mean the Neo-advaita - then yes; however, Traditional Advaita one need's the Guru. Why? to keep one on the straight path and not fall to subtle ego concerns, issues and desire fulfillment. Money Fame and Power - for which many have fallen. This is one of the great therapies a relationship with a Satguru holds, ego awareness and purification, etc etc. Keep on the Path.




Like I mentioned earlier, I have been very lucky to have lived with and studied with over ten fully-accomplished Satgurus. This was in the 70's and 80's mostly - all of them have passed on. I was able to do 14 years of full retreat practice and continue to experience inconceivable furtherance on the path. I was able to cut through many, many years (life-times??) of content and traveled the Path my main Guru put me on and fortold to me before he passed earthly existence. Nowadays, when I need Him, he appears to me and yes he appeared to me and graced me with the Advaitic Realization, but more importantly to Realization beyond Advaitic.

I hope this helps.

Thank you for sharing, BlueElephant.

Agree with you - on every count.

JL

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

Following a real Satguru , u may get a feeling of having problem with the self . However real Satguru demonstrates the solution lies in the laws and ways of God described in scriptures . He does not raise himself above others and definitely not above scriptures and scientific laws of life .

In the process devotee getting feeling that all goodness is within the Satguru is quite understandable but not however what 'Real Satguru' claims to have.

Sant Kabir has provided an excellent definition of Satguru in one of his doha.

गुरू गोविन्द दोऊ खड़े, काके लागूं पांय।
बलिहारी गुरू अपने गोविन्द दियो बताय।।

Seeker saw Guru and God . He got confused whom should he pay his obeisance / respects first - to God or to Guru .Here the answer is very dual meaning but very beautiful . Guru understood the seeker's confusion and showed / directed the seeker to pay obeisance to God .2nd interpretation is that seeker feels that it is only due to Guru that he got to understand the God and thereby first respect should go to Guru .

Technically no person is comparable to God in scale , intensity grandeur even in slightest measure except that both are made of same stuff like water of tides and water of sea. So real Guru always gives higher importance to God and His sciences above anything else (including self importance) .Guru which forgets this rule is no guru and certainly not satguru . A guru who is embodiment of this rule , is really satguru and every respect / obeisance offered to such Guru reaches the God eventually/directly.

Thank you. What your post reminded me of, is that a spiritual teacher often uses the tradition which he finds himself in ..its principles and rules to help the devotee to become a better, deeper or more authentic vessel of love. To come to a deep meaning of what that word might mean, ' love' and to live by its truth, in a world which struggles to do so, so it seems at least. Spiritual truth is often regarded as whimsical, fantastic and not practical but this doesn't have to be the case and it is often only regarded in such a light because it has been imposed upon the 'sinners'. Thank you for raising these interesting questions within me. I loved Kabir's Doha, the interconnectedness of it all. Thank you Hitesh Shah.

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[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by BlueElephant

No one is alone in this world and so however the "Guru" shows up in one's life: a book, an experience, a spiritual friend, hitting rock-bottom, the kind grace of a Holy person or their words, etc. can help greatly.

Thank you for sharing this. Something I regularly forget about. It reminds me of that saying, " What's in the way, is the Way". That communication with our deeper most self is always available and is going on sometimes against our wills I laugh but ive known it to be very painful sometimes.

Originally Posted by BlueElephant

There is a perfectionist issue in Yoga/ Hinduism. It takes time to over come such things. I would also add that there are different types of Gurus as there are Paths and many of them secret, hidden, out of the main way, not recognized, and not known - where there is a different pattern. One where the Guru's wish and assistance is for the disciple to advance further than Him/Her. The Western world has not seen the variety that exists in mystic India, and if some of it is seen it is down-played for fear to discourage people from taking to the path is a wholesome manner.

Yes that sounds true as you say the dynamic is not so well known.

I

Originally Posted by BlueElephant

If you mean the Neo-advaita - then yes; however, Traditional Advaita one need's the Guru. Why? to keep one on the straight path and not fall to subtle ego concerns, issues and desire fulfillment. Money Fame and Power - for which many have fallen. This is one of the great therapies a relationship with a Satguru holds, ego awareness and purification, etc etc. Keep on the Path.

this is a biggie isn't it ? Because alot of people confuse, the tradition, the religon etc. with spiritual liberation. Maybe they dont confuse it but their epousal of the tradition is a framwork in which their Guru works, he doesnt need the tradition as such but loves it nevertheless. However i don't think holding onto the tradition necessarily means awakening, it is a path to awakening and i fully agree that if you enter that path ..then the guidance and love of an awakened teacher must be a prerequisite in the sense that you outline, money, fame power etc.

Originally Posted by BlueElephant

Like I mentioned earlier, I have been very lucky to have lived with and studied with over ten fully-accomplished Satgurus. This was in the 70's and 80's mostly - all of them have passed on. I was able to do 14 years of full retreat practice and continue to experience inconceivable furtherance on the path. I was able to cut through many, many years (life-times??) of content and traveled the Path my main Guru put me on and fortold to me before he passed earthly existence. Nowadays, when I need Him, he appears to me and yes he appeared to me and graced me with the Advaitic Realization, but more importantly to Realization beyond Advaitic.

Thank you for sharing your wisdom. I found it very helpful of course and useful. Food for thought too. I always find it inspiring to meet people who have a made a spiritual sacrifice and commitment in their lives, that has helped revealed to them something about what human beings seek and need. It isn't a small matter making these commitments, just as raising a child or working at a personal or other type of relationship is no small matter.
Actually there are no small matters Of course there is ignorance and lostness, and horrible versions of it in our world but coming and sitting with our inner Guru may help ..although the world often tells us not. Yes your post has been most welcome and very helpful. Thank you Joe.

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[BlueElephant]

As you say Joe - the Traditions are paths to realizing the inconceivable - from there on it is a smile from Gurudev of the recognition. This recognition though is about the further exploration that is done by the disciple on one's own afterwards (is there an afterwards - LOL), that keeps going.

What I like about older Traditions is that there is more guidence and specific guidence to reach the True Realization and beyond, whereas the Neo-Advaita does not have this precious information, nor do they believe it exists, nor understand it, nor pay it much matter - with exceptions of course, but few exceptions.

Yes, I agree that life is - in a way of perception - all sacrifice - love giving into love - that makes a bigger love - it is a dialectic which of course leads to entrance into the inconceivable - once there it ever continues. and Real it is. of course more real than the dream-like fabric of existence that we normally experience.

I am glad to meet you Joe. I feel your deep sincerity and depth (and others here) and so am very glad. And I think this subject especially can bring this out in us.

One point you all might find interesting: The Inner Guru is awakened by the outer Guru. However, as with all things there are exceptions - as few as they may be. i.e that one has awakened one's Transcendent inner Guru with out the powerful ignition from the outer Guru.

A human being that has the role of Guru is not taken by the individual - why would anyone in their right mind want to be a Guru? Answer: No one ! If someone does want to be a Guru - then they already do not have qualification to be one. If they go ahead and self-appoint - then watch out for a fall.

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

is that a spiritual teacher often uses the tradition which he finds himself in ..its principles and rules to help the devotee to become a better, deeper or more authentic vessel of love. To come to a deep meaning of what that word might mean, ' love' and to live by its truth, in a world which struggles to do so, so it seems at least.

*deep applause*

Namaste,
JL