Self Knowing. Fact or Fiction ?

[H:O:R:A:C:E]

Originally Posted by Gracey

Self actualization is enlightenment. I do think that all people are enlightened from the point of source. I do not think that people have this state in the flesh. To me, if one knows themselves, they also know and understand the universe for all is connected. Clarity is usually blinding while in the flesh. And in the realm of possibilities there could be some or one who has had or has enlightenment in the flesh and I tell ya what...if it was me, not one soul would know.

knowledge is known.
unknown knowns (hidden truths?) are no secret to those in the know.
knowledge is acknowledged by knowingness.

Moses supposses his toes are roses, but Moses supposses erroneously.

Originally Posted by H:O:R:A:C:E

knowledge is known.
unknown knowns (hidden truths?) are no secret to those in the know.
knowledge is acknowledged by knowingness.

Moses supposses his toes are roses, but Moses supposses erroneously.

all knowing? no human in the flesh is actively aware of being all knowing. sure, some may know some hidden truths, but not all.

[Uma]

Originally Posted by H:O:R:A:C:E

Moses supposses his toes are roses, but Moses supposses erroneously.

hahahahahaha

[H:O:R:A:C:E]

Originally Posted by Gracey

all knowing? no human in the flesh is actively aware of being all knowing. sure, some may know some hidden truths, but not all.

i'm thinking you're looking at the situation from the limited side of the equation:
can physicality, with it's inherent limitations, incorporate the unlimited potentialities of Spirit?

from the other side:
can Spirit, a realm of unboundedness, manifest a physical expression to house itself?

it's the same question, just from a different perspective.
[Spirit is largely synonymous with knowledge for me]

[H:O:R:A:C:E]

Uma,
"Moses he knowses his toeses arent roses,
As Moses supposes his toeses to be!"

the suppositions are not "knowledge".

[quote=H:O:R:A:C:E]i'm thinking you're looking at the situation from the limited side of the equation:
can physicality, with it's inherent limitations, incorporate the unlimited potentialities of Spirit?

from the other side:
can Spirit, a realm of unboundedness, manifest a physical expression to house itself?

it's the same question, just from a different perspective.
[Spirit is largely synonymous with knowledge for me][/QUOTE


post 9 pretty much answered my thoughts on that.

I don't equate knowledge with spirit like you do. Part of, yes...largely synonymous...no.

[H:O:R:A:C:E]

Originally Posted by Gracey

Self actualization is enlightenment. I do think that all people are enlightened from the point of source. I do not think that people have this state in the flesh. To me, if one knows themselves, they also know and understand the universe for all is connected. Clarity is usually blinding while in the flesh. And in the realm of possibilities there could be some or one who has had or has enlightenment in the flesh and I tell ya what...if it was me, not one soul would know.

for me, Spirit is Light. it is also Knowledge/Information. all life has Spirit;
there is no life bereft of Spirit. (for me:) to be "enlightened" simply means to
have Spirit present within... all things do, it's just a matter of degree.

i am "in the flesh" now; i have "enlightenment" now (as does all life; now) -- it's not a process to be undergone at some future/past date.

i am in full agreement that: "... if one knows themselves, they also know and understand the universe for all is connected."
this concept is why philosophers have forever advocated: "know thyself";
to know thyself (fully) will bring all knowledge along with it.
[it is implied that the task is within the realm of possible things to accomplish] [this speaks directly to the OP]

i discard the notion that: "Clarity is usually blinding while in the flesh."
if it were rewritten as: "knowledge can be confusing [to a fleshly being]",
i would have no qualms. the word "usually" sticks in my craw, and i won't swallow it.
knowledge (meaning "information"; i.e. "clarity") is accessible to fleshly,
incarnate beings -- always and forever -- for as long as flesh exists -- since life always contains Spirit.

light radiates. to radiate in a manner which is undetectable seems problematic.
to be secretly imbued with enlightenment ... (?)
i don't understand the reason for such.

i have omitted addressing the phrase "Self actualization".

peace, H:O:R:A:C:E

post script: i had also thought to incorporate the ideas of 'holographic universe',
fractals (a pattern, wherein a small fraction contains the whole image),
and "God seed atom". i apologize for my failure to do so.

[Light Seeker]

Thank you for your thoughtful responses. That is to say that which YOU believe or think... I value those views , I value even more the time taken to express those views... Thank you.

Originally Posted by Gracey

Self actualization is enlightenment.

Quiet a bold assertion on the face of it because knowing yourself would appear to be solely dependent on your personal experiences , responses and the understandings one develops personally as a result of those things.

Admittedly there are tools like transcendental meditation and mindfulness that can , it is said, divorce our perspectives from personal biases , but for the most part , while we as individuals are involved in living this life we are subject to that which we have come to accept as our understanding based upon our experience and more importantly, how we personally have responded and come to understand those experiences and influences. That is to say ...We are it appears , shaped just as much , if not more so than we would ourselves try to shape. Which is well worth considering when read assertions on these or any other forums.


Gem...

Which one is self - the one who knows or the one known?

Good One My Friend ! My noodle was already suitably baked and required no further cooking from your good self... Perhaps I may return to your question in the future, For the moment I am quiet content to wrestle with the question of what I know being really what I know as opposed to what I think I know ?

[WabiSabi]

The way I see it is like this...
As far as a lifetime is concerned, you may only ever experience yourself from one perspective
That is, the perspective of yourself, of your body and ego
But there are a very large number of different perspectives, yes?
The perspective of your mother, of your father, of your best friend, of your dog, and every other perspective on the face of the Earth
In order to know yourself fully, you'd have to understand how every single one of these perspectives views you
And even more than that, to truly define yourself you have to know your origin, and in the end (or beginning), the origin of you is the origin of the universe
In other words, to truly define yourself, you'd have to define everything that exists
An impossible task, really
But it turns out that it is not so impossible after all
As many people have experienced the epiphany, the totally obvious realization that in order to define yourself, you must define everything, and so YOU MUST BE EVERYTHING
To have such an experience is true self-realization

i discard the notion that: "Clarity is usually blinding while in the flesh."
if it were rewritten as: "knowledge can be confusing [to a fleshly being]",
i would have no qualms. the word "usually" sticks in my craw, and i won't swallow it.


Same meaning, different way to express it, both ways are fine with me.



to be secretly imbued with enlightenment ... (?)
i don't understand the reason for such.

May you never have to...