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  #41  
Old 17-10-2019, 08:09 PM
davidsun davidsun is offline
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Thoroughly thought out and extremely clearly articulated (IMO), Jyotir.
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  #42  
Old 17-10-2019, 08:20 PM
Jyotir Jyotir is offline
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Hi 7L,

a few points to clarify…

1) it was presented (but I guess that tempts even more so) as qualified by: “hyper-simplification”, and,

2) assumed by context to be describing the prevalent “problem set” as in most unconscious and burdened with disagreeable consequences - the vast majority of people within both genders who are fraught with the issues discussed - even including, and in many cases - the highly educated (surprise), who - in both genders are largely unconscious about the sexual and desire components of their being that rule their lives, and as a result are exploited as such, and being educated have great facility in exploiting others (often as a studied profession or adjunct to one as a “life-quality” pursuit) as a prevalent and unquestioned social dynamic. (I live in a fairly large urban metropolis in the Northern Hemisphere and see this demonstrated incessantly)

3) the case you present is more ideal, less fraught with these problems when actualized, but imo represents a very small minority of people on the planet, although increasingly more individuals are increasingly striving in that direction. Yet even on this supposedly 'spiritual' site people argue against spiritual approach to life insisting that the ultimate goal of human existence is a complacent moral ethical sentimental bourgeois life (home family country)...with a dash of hard science wonder to occasionally ponder.

4) Q: does one‘s “simple humanity” include the need for plastic surgery to preserve the appearance of sexual viability as one ages? Or maybe it’s just about preserving beauty in the ideal classic Greek sense. Ultimately, one can’t cheat death, but one might fool one’s chronological age - or one’s sexual appetites - to obviate another’s possible or presumed alienation that btw cheats or pre-empts others’ “simple humanity” in a way that presumes and judges by surface appearance as to intention - wouldn’t you agree? Do you think that the percentage of men who indulge in porn is equivalent to the percentage of women who wear make-up & sparkly things, color their hair, get cosmetic surgery, and willingly pay 3x as much for clothes that show more skin?

Quote:
Also, the overriding reason for many women in conforming to certain particular standards or looks or fashions is simple acceptance and/or preventing scorn or negative judgment. I think this is a very primal fear or concern as we are relational, communal beings -- and we want to belong where we are.
But why so? That strikes me as naïve, unexamined, and actually makes my point, since "where we are" is where "we" unconsciously want to be vis-à-vis the preferred disposition of orientation by sexual viability of which age (& age-ism) is also a key but subsidiary component.

so…“women’s perspectives not well understood by men“?
How about by themselves?
And of course the obverse would apply to men as well. That was a major point. So let's be fair

It goes without saying that neither has a good and really useful understanding of mutually divergent identity, attributes, ways, means, and goals, especially in the spiritual sense, because they don‘t understand themselves first. How could they if they are simply unwitting and unconscious reactors to and slaves of these natural forces extant within human existence - male or female?

~ J
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  #43  
Old 18-10-2019, 03:05 AM
janielee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jyotir
Having and raising a child is a huge sacrifice and commitment which should not be lightly undertaken. The issue of unfit parents and presence of unwanted children has serious implications for the individuals involved and serious consequences for society as well. People should not be forced for whatever reason to bear that burden if indeed unwanted.

The key factor in this issue is whether or not the soul - the sacred aspect of human life - has entered the body or not, and what its disposition is to continuance (in addition to the obvious - the health of the mother). Since that event of entry may occur any time between conception and birth - or even after the birth in some cases - the question of legitimacy then becomes a highly individual one and remains open to question, unless involved parties have that capacity of real inner vision.

This presents more variables than a single blanket statutory prescription may provide. To make such determinations of right/wrong based on any uniform code which is morally, ethically, or legally based - without including the genuinely spiritual factors, are inherently inadequate, limited, and are highly relative to numerous unique factors of circumstance including and especially the status of the soul’s presence and disposition, and the mother’s own (soul) necessities, and karmic obligations of all involved parties. These prohibitive laws cannot in the spiritual sense be fundamentally correct; they would usurp the primacy of the mother’s autonomy and interrelation of souls in favor of a blind state control that is usually largely based on the society’s dominant religion’s moral code imposed on other members of the society. For instance, the same demographic (esp. in the post-industrial West) who oppose abortion in principle as a “moral” issue - even if a woman has been raped - usually supports: capital punishment, numerous social injustices, environmental degradation, unbridled commerce, and are usually averse to vegetarianism in principle.

It is a fact that a large number of first time pregnancies end in spontaneous miscarriage, demonstrating a common reality many want to ignore in favor of these control issues. It is also why women traditionally would not talk about a pregnancy until it was well along, so as to have that autonomous discretion in the beginning of the pregnancy and the option to terminate if so wanted. It is a private personal matter. Otherwise if the state mandates all pregnancies be carried to term, perhaps the state should take responsibility for the raising of the children (and do we really want that anyway?), or give those children to people who demand this vicariously from others, making others responsible for their own sacrosanct projections of assumed righteous moral codes, which is entirely relative to their own religious and socio-economic status - yet erroneously presumed to be the primary or dominant factor for all other people. (but some religions need more souls to “save”, and there is only one way to do that: create more people in dire circumstance)

Now, people have been taught and expected as a norm, to participate in self-surveillance making public the most intimate details of their lives as a social grace and necessity. Combine that with an instant pregnancy test and the mother’s autonomy has been self-sabotaged after the fact of determination. But that isn’t where it begins. Other more existential questions need to be looked at….

Abortion is a messy topic because human sexuality is messy. For instance, why is it that so much money is spent by men on pornography, but yet that is probably equivalent or proportionate to the amount women spend on various appearance enhancing devices (cosmetics: make-up, jewelry, fashion, shoes, hair color, cosmetic surgery, etc.). It is about the largely unconscious stimulation, projection and reception of one’s sexual viability into the world to eventually satisfy largely unconscious desires. 7luminaries speaks to these issues in many posts quite well and legitimately questions the institutionalization of these modalities - including the sacrosanct institutionalization of commercialism and profit which consciously and deliberately exploits the former: desires in fellow human beings to satisfy the latter’s self-same in another form - which has become the dominant context for learned behaviour in the culture, resulting in the society we now see. In this culture, individuals do bear ultimate responsibility for individual behavior, but who’s individuality has been taught, formed, supported, and exploited deliberately by dominant elements in the collective to become (often unwitting or subtly coerced) instruments for their own purposes of existential fulfillment through those others (almost like farm animals in some cases, as a convenience exigency of production).

A vicious circle indeed, because we keep perpetuating the very circumstance that is inescapably shared by all - that is also eventually unsatisfying for all (environment, poverty, social injustice, etc.). Does the accumulation of wealth in extreme measure by the expoitation of others (voluntary, involuntary, coerced, or unconscious) actually insulate the bearers from misfortune, unhappiness, and 'bad' karma? Why should a naïve (but pregnant) teenager bear the all the moral responsibility - but not the corporate CEO who’s company perpetuates the stimulation of desire for profit (and is lauded for it)? Double standard?

Sex is something we spend lots of time thinking about, preparing for, demonstrating its viability, and importantly - stimulating the desire for it in others as a standard unquestioned and promoted social dynamic. Yet it takes relatively little time to actually engage in by comparison, but the implications of the results are far-reaching, (5 minutes of sex can result in years of pain suffering and confusion, or in some cases, worse), affect the quality of life for everyone in the long-term, and create these problems that are always after-the-fact - largely unquestioned and unchallenged as a de-facto premise - that of a presumed sacrosanct existential purpose of “feeling and being sexy” and desired - or how to achieve that as a dominant modality of life.

Women want to be desired by men, needed by children, and appreciated by family; “love”. Men want to be ‘received’ by women, dominant providers for family (and heirs), and attain power in the society by doing so; “love” (<- & yes, a hyper-simplification). Women and men mutually seek each other out to fulfill these wants and needs - again - largely unconscious & this is why the spiritual pov from various traditions is invaluable. But the foregoing play of desire is now the basis of most of our institutions. And yet, higher forms of interaction, creativity, and fulfillment - both individual and social - are available - some things we urgently need to consider and transform both individually and culturally.

The issue of abortion is just in the middle of it.
It is indicative in concentrated form of broader themes and issues that need to be questioned and considered as precursors to it, and to understand what needs to be transformed in terms of life-purpose, subsequent attitudes, and consequent behaviours.

Just some thoughts on the subject, fwiw.

~ J

Thanks very much for an extremely lucid, cogent, and insightful .. essay, Jyotir.

Jl
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  #44  
Old 18-10-2019, 03:12 AM
janielee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7luminaries
Based on me, the vast majority of all the women I've ever known, most women I've observed, and most relevant spiritual and academic learning.

Broadly, we do not want to be desired physically by men at large, or by men generally. None but the most stunted or damaged would agree with that IMO.

Have you watched music videos, read tabloids, looked at many parts of society? Have you seen younger women and older?

I agree not everyone is such, but to say most women aren't is probably an over generalization. I don’t think women want to be treated as objects but do agree with the perspective that it’s built into society/culture being desirable is attractive and attractiveness is desired (by women)

I mean even the example of dressing well so people don’t look down on women is just another variation of this. Wanting to be seen as desirable, respectable, in a positive light etc.

I’m honestly surprised you would believe 99.9% of women are not interested in being attractive, and would suggest thats a projection of your personal mindset.

Again this does NOT mean women want to be seen in a sexual way per se, but there is an inference that attractiveness is desirability, and our corporations, advertising, standards, movies, stimuli all suggest such, and these values have been infiltrated quite seamlessly into society. Perhaps it has always been this way.

Jl
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  #45  
Old 18-10-2019, 10:06 AM
Altair Altair is offline
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Interesting turn this thread took, I would say a lot of sexual attraction is subtle and people may not be aware of it. Wanting to look attractive and recognized for being attractive may not mean that person is actively seeking sex but there is an underlying pattern of seeking recognition and approval..

I think everyone should dress as they want (I'd wear only tracksuits, hoodies and sporty clothes 24/7 if I could!! Yeah, ain't I an unsophisticated man? I don't care!) but really you can't tell me sharing selfies where one shows cleavage (combined with pouted or open lips) or a bare muscular chest doesn't has an unconscious desire of wanting to be seen as sexually attractive. I mean come on. Most of the time we may not be aware of it or tell ourselves there's another reason for doing it but there are unconscious desires and expectations. Becoming aware of such patterns helps us to be free of such chains.

I also agree with the others that Yjotir made an excellent post on abortion. And yeah, why doesn't the state take care of all those babies if it's so concerned? lol, never thought about it that way..
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  #46  
Old 18-10-2019, 01:33 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janielee
Have you watched music videos, read tabloids, looked at many parts of society? Have you seen younger women and older?

I agree not everyone is such, but to say most women aren't is probably an over generalization. I don’t think women want to be treated as objects but do agree with the perspective that it’s built into society/culture being desirable is attractive and attractiveness is desired (by women)

I mean even the example of dressing well so people don’t look down on women is just another variation of this. Wanting to be seen as desirable, respectable, in a positive light etc.

I’m honestly surprised you would believe 99.9% of women are not interested in being attractive, and would suggest thats a projection of your personal mindset.

Again this does NOT mean women want to be seen in a sexual way per se, but there is an inference that attractiveness is desirability, and our corporations, advertising, standards, movies, stimuli all suggest such, and these values have been infiltrated quite seamlessly into society. Perhaps it has always been this way.

Jl
Janie, hello there.

I specifically spoke of the vast majority of women (i.e., most women, most of the time) not wanting to be viewed in a base, coarse, sexual manner by men in passing ("at large") or desired for sex/sexually by men "at large". Most women strongly prefer to be looked at and approached in this way only by someone who loves them deeply, within a deeply loving context. And I stand by that.

I also specifically spoke of the vast majority of women wanting to be accepted, and respected first and foremost for their humanity. So yes to be viewed favourably and with respect and honour. And I stand by that.

You mention "attractiveness" (which is based on many things, not all physical and much of which having equally to do with being pleasant, kind, and friendly) and mix it with base sexual desire or urges.
I specifically did NOT mix these things together -- so your response reads to me as just that, a mix of several things all together.

Nor BTW do I psychologise others nor make any assumptions about the inner workings of total strangers, and you'd be better served IMO to do likewise .

I also noted that dressing to be accepted (according to whatever fashion or trend) is something that is certainly done.
And that we are most prone to the extremes and dictates of social trends and fashions when younger and less confident. But this is not an absolute statement, just a general one.

Peace & blessings
7L
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Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

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  #47  
Old 18-10-2019, 02:06 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jyotir
Hi 7L,

a few points to clarify…

1) it was presented (but I guess that tempts even more so) as qualified by: “hyper-simplification”, and,

2) assumed by context to be describing the prevalent “problem set” as in most unconscious and burdened with disagreeable consequences - the vast majority of people within both genders who are fraught with the issues discussed - even including, and in many cases - the highly educated (surprise), who - in both genders are largely unconscious about the sexual and desire components of their being that rule their lives, and as a result are exploited as such, and being educated have great facility in exploiting others (often as a studied profession or adjunct to one as a “life-quality” pursuit) as a prevalent and unquestioned social dynamic. (I live in a fairly large urban metropolis in the Northern Hemisphere and see this demonstrated incessantly)
Jyotir, hello there. I think you know quite well I don't disagree with any of what you say here. Agreed, full stop, that these are all serious issues, and that when most individuals are not sufficiently aware or awakened, they are easily manipulated by predatory social norms, institutions, and/or individuals.

Quote:
3) the case you present is more ideal, less fraught with these problems when actualized, but imo represents a very small minority of people on the planet, although increasingly more individuals are increasingly striving in that direction. Yet even on this supposedly 'spiritual' site people argue against spiritual approach to life insisting that the ultimate goal of human existence is a complacent moral ethical sentimental bourgeois life (home family country)...with a dash of hard science wonder to occasionally ponder.
I too am not in agreement with amoral utilitarianism in any form...whether it's the ruthless predatory version so prevalent today, or whether it's the "kinder, gentler" apathy borne of cynicism and despair.

Nonetheless, I can feel and see the truth of what I see in the hearts and minds of most women. It's just that so many as yet still lack the courage, the voice, and perhaps even the words...because they've kept quiet for so long. Because it's been made so clear by society for more than a half century now...all they've ever known firsthand...that they are nothing special, interchangeable, just a **** really. And by most men who are not family or beloved friends, who tell them in myriad ways, shapes, and forms that there is little or nothing sacred or special or noteworthy about them as individuals, people, souls -- i.e., if they don't pay to play or get with the program then they are nothing special or worth getting to know otherwise, and it's on to the next. Pay to play now luv, it's the sex and affection we want, and we'll see how it all plays out.

That's where most are, married or not, because non-familial opposite-sex relationships have never historically been based upon a mutual authentic love, unlike ALL other intimate personal relationships ideally and often actually were (i.e., parent/child, beloved friend, beloved mentor/student, etc). And historically women had very little say, so there you go. They just outlawed "marital" rape 25-30 years ago. Progress is very slow and absolutely, the voice of most women is not well heard or understood at this time.

Do I reject the near-universal demands in Western societies to "pay to play"? Yes, I do...but too many are not in that position, beat down, and struggling to get by, perhaps with kids as well. And we are persistently and pervasively vulnerable, in nearly all ways. So they try desperately to please time and time again, against their dignity, their inner morality, their core humanity. Meanwhile, what most women want is a mutuality of authentic love in ALL our personal relationships. Including partnerships. Nothing has changed...it's what we've always wanted and it's who we've always been. It's just that at this time, it's still a radical act of resistance simply to be who we are, much less to give voice to it.

Quote:
4) Q: does one‘s “simple humanity” include the need for plastic surgery to preserve the appearance of sexual viability as one ages? Or maybe it’s just about preserving beauty in the ideal classic Greek sense. Ultimately, one can’t cheat death, but one might fool one’s chronological age - or one’s sexual appetites - to obviate another’s possible or presumed alienation that btw cheats or pre-empts others’ “simple humanity” in a way that presumes and judges by surface appearance as to intention - wouldn’t you agree? Do you think that the percentage of men who indulge in porn is equivalent to the percentage of women who wear make-up & sparkly things, color their hair, get cosmetic surgery, and willingly pay 3x as much for clothes that show more skin?
I would say by far porn is the great equaliser for men...near universal, and that more men globally watch porn than all those other things combined But I will agree that there are standards for women's appearance in nearly all cultures that require attention to clothing and grooming. You may not wear makeup or colour the hair or follow the extreme trends...but likely you have to do a bit of something to "meet the grade" and not be socially shunned or judged harshly. Most of us strike a balance and do what we feel or observe is necessary -- but as we've discussed this also depends upon one's confidence and one's social status. For example, poor women, younger women, women of colour, and so forth are often judged far more harshly when they do not conform "properly", and all manner of judgment is laid upon them from afar. So these are very real concerns, yes, and also broadly universal.

Quote:
But why so? That strikes me as naïve, unexamined, and actually makes my point, since "where we are" is where "we" unconsciously want to be vis-à-vis the preferred disposition of orientation by sexual viability of which age (& age-ism) is also a key but subsidiary component.
I just got a bit more into that background above and sorry, did not include that prior Rarely is there an aspect of anything socially related where I would fall into the unexamined category. Just saving typing, hahaha. Yes, there is a requisite mainstream ideal and if you do not meet it in some way you suffer judgment, discrimination, and so forth. Be it based on age, race, class, and so forth. As I've noted, social acceptance has (both historically and now) always been of particular concern for women as we are much more vulnerable all round. And then, yes, as we've noted, this conformist ideal is then heavily sexualised by men for their consumption AND for social control of men through sex and porn, for economic exploitation all round, and for all manner of control and exploitation of women.

Quote:
so…“women’s perspectives not well understood by men“?
How about by themselves?
And of course the obverse would apply to men as well. That was a major point. So let's be fair
Yes...not well understood in many cases. That is simply a truth. Mostly because of the lack of pervasive, consistent communication of our perspectives in all areas of society, both personal and communal. Our inner lives still lack a broad and diverse voice in mainstream society, and what is shared is often superficial and/or very partial, not really at the substance of it at all. And much of this has to do with making a space to put those voices forward at the deepest and most resonant levels. Without harsh judgment and with a broad and deep empathy which makes for deeper understanding (short of illumination and direct transmission).

I do agree that whilst adult women (beyond the age of innocence, or ~uni age) DO actually know much of their deepest feelings and yearnings (and perhaps that is not always so for men, granted), that there is a wealth of additional knowing that comes with the articulation and sharing...in finding the words AND the courage to put them forward, both. First and foremost, we need the space to be different in very deep and broad ways where this is clearly and often the case. Like regarding sexual desire in women, which is most often tied strongly to a particular individual and rooted deeply in emotional and spiritual bonds. It is not "at large" and doesn't work that way for most of us, LOL. To ascribe that sort of blanket perspective to the vast majority of women means that all deeper understanding is lost from the start. And that's essentially the history of humanity to date.

Of course, wherever (particularly in modern society) men have been schooled to contain or control their feelings, then this applies variously to men as well -- and it's interesting that even a century ago here this was much less the case in some ways and men in the West were able to be much more demonstrative and physically tactile with one another, i.e., showing affection to one another. With reflection and emotional freedom comes insight, wisdom, and spiritual growth...so obviously, there are reasons this stifling "standard" was put forward as "the norm" for men, LOL...

Quote:
It goes without saying that neither has a good and really useful understanding of mutually divergent identity, attributes, ways, means, and goals, especially in the spiritual sense, because they don‘t understand themselves first. How could they if they are simply unwitting and unconscious reactors to and slaves of these natural forces extant within human existence - male or female?

~ J
As to your general statement, yes, agreed generally

Peace & blessings
7L
__________________
Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
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  #48  
Old 21-10-2019, 02:11 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
Interesting turn this thread took, I would say a lot of sexual attraction is subtle and people may not be aware of it. Wanting to look attractive and recognized for being attractive may not mean that person is actively seeking sex but there is an underlying pattern of seeking recognition and approval..

I think everyone should dress as they want (I'd wear only tracksuits, hoodies and sporty clothes 24/7 if I could!! Yeah, ain't I an unsophisticated man? I don't care!) but really you can't tell me sharing selfies where one shows cleavage (combined with pouted or open lips) or a bare muscular chest doesn't has an unconscious desire of wanting to be seen as sexually attractive. I mean come on. Most of the time we may not be aware of it or tell ourselves there's another reason for doing it but there are unconscious desires and expectations. Becoming aware of such patterns helps us to be free of such chains.

Altair, hello there! Agreed absolutely there are underlying reasons and also that it is crucial to become more aware of what those are.

See my response to Jyotir, above, where I discuss those underlying reasons more fully
Quote:
I also agree with the others that Yjotir made an excellent post on abortion. And yeah, why doesn't the state take care of all those babies if it's so concerned? lol, never thought about it that way..
LOL...well, isn't it far, far, far more useful & convenient in terms of social control for the state to instead levy harsh judgment whilst withholding decent basic support for mums and kids? Keep 'em in their place.
As it will certainly be quite difficult for many women to get by whilst struggling to find mostly low-paid work, full-time daycare for their kids, and to fund and organise the household as a single mum.

Of course, the long-term social, economic, and real human costs and losses of these prejudicial social policies are great. Both for the women, their kids, our society at present, and our future. But society right now can feel immensely justified in its smug, heavy-handed judgment if they withhold basic resources up front based on all these women's innate moral inferiority, first for having sex (apparently with no one) & then either for having the abortion OR for having the kids whilst poor &/or single.

The men having sex? The children they co-create? They may roll out the back door and exempt themselves from judgment because they can. Because they are physically, socially, and economically far more powerful and the women, far more vulnerable.
Having got off "scot-free" by society and their peers, many men take no ownership whatsoever for their actions, AND may then join in the tight-fisted, smug moral judgment of these same women.

These women (i.e., all women having sex who end up pregnant who are not wealthy) can then be judged as morally inferior no matter what they do.
If they rid themselves of the baby, then for the state, it's good riddance whilst society can continue to judge the women as evil sinners.
Meantime, if the women have do their kids, then they & their kids deserve to suffer & be judged. As they are poor &/or unmarried and thus "a burden" on the state which should be cast off & not countenanced.

Then the wealthy, the judgy men, and some judgy women who are not too put upon can all feel HUGELY superior whilst they vote & work to withhold funds & services to those lowly, evil women -- sinners all -- who had sex, got pregnant, and either kept the baby or didn't. LOL...as no matter what choice they women made, it is always the "wrong choice" and they and they alone should always be punished and censured, and should be made to bear the lion's share of our rapacious, insatiable judgment LOL

To do otherwise would require that we ALL own responsibility for our own behaviour as adults and as a society of adults, and that we fund and support one another accordingly.
And taking ownership is something that most are as yet clearly unwilling to do -- not when it's so easy to roll it downhill and to kick the weak and the vulnerable, particularly when they are in need and you are dominant over them.

Peace & blessings
7L
__________________
Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
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  #49  
Old 27-10-2019, 05:39 PM
LibraIndigo LibraIndigo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jyotir
People should not be forced for whatever reason to bear that burden if indeed unwanted.
pregnancy doesnt happen by accident. Maybe we humans think it does but there is always something larger at play. It's God's will and the plan for the soul and the the parties involved. Sometimes karmic good or bad and its not by accident, even none of the of the circumstances are an accident. Its not about being forced...its about messing with plans which are carried out by higher powers. There are huge implications.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jyotir
The key factor in this issue is whether or not the soul - the sacred aspect of human life - has entered the body or not, and what its disposition is to continuance (in addition to the obvious - the health of the mother). Since that event of entry may occur any time between conception and birth - or even after the birth in some cases - the question of legitimacy then becomes a highly individual one and remains open to question, unless involved parties have that capacity of real inner vision.

I knew energetically when my son was there and when he wasnt. He was around from the beginning. Even beforehand. It's not so much the physical taking of life or weather the soul has entered the fetus, its stopping what the spirit wanted to experience in the future. Taking away their chance.
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  #50  
Old 28-10-2019, 09:45 AM
Altair Altair is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LibraIndigo
pregnancy doesnt happen by accident. Maybe we humans think it does but there is always something larger at play. It's God's will and the plan for the soul and the the parties involved. Sometimes karmic good or bad and its not by accident, even none of the of the circumstances are an accident. Its not about being forced...its about messing with plans which are carried out by higher powers. There are huge implications.

Many things that occur in this world are accidental. If a disease ridden mosquito bites you and not the person sitting next to you than you got bad luck. While we can control things to some extent we can't eliminate accidents or coincidences. The idea that everything that happens carries a 'purpose' is a by-product of the human brain which always looks for patterns, even when there are none.

If everything is already planned or predetermined [I'm playing along for a moment.. ] than the same would apply to death, which is the most obvious and overlooked dent in your belief.
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