Where Do We Go at Death if not heaven or hell?

[sky]

Originally Posted by ImthatIm

I guess I can't be your soul brother.

No sorry, but you are my Spirit Brother...

Originally Posted by sky123

I'll try

Buddhists don't believe in a soul or anything permanent that is reincarnated.
Rebirth is a belief that a 'Being' is reborn with limited awareness of previous lives but no characteristics of our previous selves except the continuation of our individual behaviour and karmic tendencies. So rebirth is a ' Fresh Start ' or a ' Second chance ' to work through Karmic lessons and achieve Nirvana.

Hmmm... this seems to me to be a bit self contradictory. If I call that "being" a soul, the second sentence seems to butt heads with the first. Whatever is getting the second chance, that has those individual behaviors and karmic tendencies it needs to work through so it can achieve Nirvana, sounds permanent enough from the standpoint of at least those two lifetimes.

“There must be somebody there, because somebody must have said "Nobody.”
― A.A. Milne, Winnie-the-Pooh

[sky]

Originally Posted by ketzer

Hmmm... this seems to me to be a bit self contradictory. If I call that "being" a soul, the second sentence seems to butt heads with the first. Whatever is getting the second chance, that has those individual behaviors and karmic tendencies it needs to work through so it can achieve Nirvana, sounds permanent enough from the standpoint of at least those two lifetimes.

Don't call a being a soul

Originally Posted by davidmartin

I would characterise it like this Sky/Vince:

Re-incarnation was found among Gnostics with the odd church father being sympathetic i think (Origen?)

Certainly the budding early church appeared to not be into re-incarnation, i would agree with that

If Sky wants to argue that the original Jesus people did in fact believe in it but it got removed, well then that is a personal belief she has and it's got a few crumbs of support in some places here and there, but this is getting into personal beliefs very much

So reincarnation was not found in the early Church apart from in groups of Christians outside the mainstream and on the fringes of orthadoxy, but it was found in them.

Its personal beliefs though in the end I think

I thought I had read something about Origen as well, but some say that is a misinterpretation of his idea of souls existing before birth. I suppose that it is hard to say what various early Christians did and did not believe before the development of a central authority came along to impose and enforce an orthodoxy. We know opposing views were out there as the sanctioned texts refer to different heresies and heretics, but other then the odd crumbling scraps of scrolls that survived the eons of persecution and destruction, it is hard to say just how much diversity did exist in the period of time closest to the actual life of Jesus. As with any war, the victors write the history. Fortunately, the victors fought enough amongst themselves to produce a final product that is discordant enough to tip us off that there may be more to the story than this "God called up and dictated the bible to us and we wrote it down" approach that the church(s) would have us believe.

Anyway those are my demented, insane, and heretical personal beliefs on that.

BTW, I can swim.... but I do burn, if I have a choice, I will opt for trial by water.

Further laws against heresy appeared in 380 AD under the Christian Emperor Theodosius I, who laid down the new rule:

We command that those persons who follow this rule shall embrace the name of Catholic Christians. The rest, however, whom we adjudge demented and insane, shall sustain the infamy of heretical dogmas, their meeting places shall not receive the name of churches, and they shall be smitten first by divine vengeance and secondly by the retribution of our own initiative, which we shall assume in accordance with divine judgement.
http://www.heretication.info/_heretics.html

Originally Posted by sky123

Don't call a being a soul

Ahhh! I see Sensei. That must be some of that zen buddhist spiritual kung fu I have heard so much about. It is inspirational to see one walk through walls with so little effort.
I am ashamed of my own corporeal clumsiness as I started a thread on Anatta once, but it has now grown larger than Tolstoy's War and Peace, and I had to unsubscribe from it.

"Your mind is like this water, my friend. When it is agitated, it becomes difficult to see. But if you allow it to settle, the answer becomes clear."
Grand Master Oogway, Kung Fu Panda

Originally Posted by JosephineBloggs

I don't think I ever thought about soul/spirit when I was a child at all.

Is it just me, or does that sound like a rather pleasant time of life to anybody else?

“What day is it?” asked Pooh.
“It’s today,” squeaked Piglet.
“My favorite day,” said Pooh.”
― A.A. Milne

Originally Posted by Untersberg56

Where Do We Go at Death if not to heaven or hell?

You either go to California or New Jersey, respectively.

[davidmartin]

Originally Posted by ketzer

I thought I had read something about Origen as well, but some say that is a misinterpretation of his idea of souls existing before birth. I suppose that it is hard to say what various early Christians did and did not believe before the development of a central authority came along to impose and enforce an orthodoxy. We know opposing views were out there as the sanctioned texts refer to different heresies and heretics, but other then the odd crumbling scraps of scrolls that survived the eons of persecution and destruction, it is hard to say just how much diversity did exist in the period of time closest to the actual life of Jesus. As with any war, the victors write the history. Fortunately, the victors fought enough amongst themselves to produce a final product that is discordant enough to tip us off that there may be more to the story than this "God called up and dictated the bible to us and we wrote it down" approach that the church(s) would have us believe.

Anyway those are my demented, insane, and heretical personal beliefs on that.

BTW, I can swim.... but I do burn, if I have a choice, I will opt for trial by water.

yep I do agree the discordant parts are the best, and throw light on that orthadoxising process. I think its not just the victors fought among themselves but also their opponents got some stuff in as well, and without this mystery it wouldn't have the great appeal it does

but to reincarnation you can find it in the apocryphon of john

"“When they come forth from the body, such a soul is given over to the powers created by the rulers, bound in chains, and cast into prison again. Around and around it goes until it manages to become free from forgetfulness through knowledge. And so, eventually, it becomes perfect and is saved.”
but this text is after late 1st century events when 'gnostics' seemed to become way more dualistic than they were before. the church fathers suggested simon magus came up with the gnostic ideas but if you check his writings they don't seem that extreme in their dualism but he is said to have promoted reincarnation, after all his Helena had been reincarnated many times he is bound to have


pre-existence of the soul as well, i think that is more interesting a doctrine than reincarnation which is kind of a bit rigid and just as many problems as the alternatives. i do think Jesus believed in that

[Aknaton]

The reason that the Christian section is having these interesting "ideas" brought in is because the souls of those that are posting these things are seeking a higher experience and they draw them here. It is just physically manifesting as this.
You see, it's amazing! They don't go and attack the Buddah forum, the Siva lounge or any other but the Christ section. That's because they know they won't find anything there but here.

Remember a moth comes from darkness and travels in search of light and eventually sticks to the light. If the consuming Fire doesn't burn them, they die without ever knowing the Fire. Apostle Paul once persecuted the Christians, and he himself became one of the pioneers, and though you present these interesting doctrines, you only want the truth.

These are the ones who have made constant effort in "registering" they're name here. That is because they're souls are marked by Jesus Christ for Salvation. One of my favorites is sky123, our very own Preacher and Teacher, though he just needs a face to face with the Lord to learn His Calling. But pay attention to his vigor and intensity as well as consistency, this guy can literally win whole planetary civilizations for Christ! I love this guy!!!
Have you seen this guy's research on Christianity? Sometimes I get embarrassed, I consider myself as a strong Christian, but sky123 spends more time than me contemplating God. I have to learn this, theres something we can all learn from this as Christians. Shout out to sky123! Keep the fire burnin'!

But of what use is reincarnation if Elijah went straight up to heaven? Of what significance is this if the corpse of Jesus Christ was raised and walked out the grave? Do we need to then believe In the inferior doctrine of Reincarnation? I say, let's go for the Highest and the Best!

[VinceField]

[quote=sky123]

Originally Posted by VinceField

This is absurd. They were simply preventing the corruption of the original church teachings because there were groups who were distorting the true word. This in no way proves that reincarnation was a part of early Christian teachings. What you need is Biblical manuscript evidence. Do you have this?[/Quote



It is absurd that people were threatened and arrested for their beliefs..... But what do you expect from the ' Powers Above ' keep the masses under control ......

So you don't have any actual evidence. That's what I thought. Glad I could effectively debunk the lies you are spreading.