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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Lifestyle > Vegetarian & Vegan

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  #41  
Old 08-09-2016, 03:42 AM
mogenblue mogenblue is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SerpentSun
Not to add to debate, but I'm just curious. Y'all rely on grocery stores, supplements, and even the internet just to afford enough to eat. But what if all that failed? All it takes is one solar flare, one idiot nuking the magnetosphere, one hacker, one pesky plague....Even the machines that tend the fields can be hacked just like cars these days.

Everything relies on computers, everything is hooked up to one "grid" or "cloud", putting all our eggs in one basket. Just like monocropping. Just like hoping a superbug, resistant to our most poisonous pesticides, don't wipe out the whole harvest. So what if that happens?

If the disasters you describe would happen animal food would no longer be available either.
Processing animal food and eggs relies on computers too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SerpentSun
Or what if yet another superbug makes everyone too sick to farm? I'm not sure ration cards can be used online, nor do they cover supplements. Food stamps don't even cover supplements. What if the next president ticks off Kim Jong Un, and he launches a nuke up in the atmosphere, disabling a 3rd of satellites like the US did in the 50s/60s? Or maybe it was the UK. Either way, there goes the internet.

If a superbug makes everyone too sick to farm, again, animal food and eggs would no longer be available either.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SerpentSun
So considering that the vegan diet requires either enough people to farm, computers to do it for us, or the space and skills to grow enough food yourself....And even with a big agriculture industry, y'all still seem to need supplements....Could any of you even survive a natural or manmade disaster that threatens our already-vulnerable food security?

Could you survive without the internet to buy vitamins, the modern technology farmers rely on, or those farmers alive and well to farm for you?

You can ask yourself if you would survive either on a regular diet. The farmers you get your food from rely on the same technology.
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  #42  
Old 09-09-2016, 10:46 PM
SerpentSun SerpentSun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogenblue
If the disasters you describe would happen animal food would no longer be available either.
Processing animal food and eggs relies on computers too.



If a superbug makes everyone too sick to farm, again, animal food and eggs would no longer be available either.




You can ask yourself if you would survive either on a regular diet. The farmers you get your food from rely on the same technology.

I never said anything about a regular diet. This is about whether any form of meat would be eaten, were farms and supplements unavailable. I don't eat farmed meat. I hunt. Which is a lot easier than researching which wild plants are edible, or telling wild carrot from poison hemlock. Though I would recommend learning that too. But you never have to worry about telling wild rabbit from poison hare.
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  #43  
Old 09-09-2016, 11:52 PM
Tobi Tobi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SerpentSun
Not to add to debate, but I'm just curious. Y'all rely on grocery stores, supplements, and even the internet just to afford enough to eat. But what if all that failed? All it takes is one solar flare, one idiot nuking the magnetosphere, one hacker, one pesky plague....Even the machines that tend the fields can be hacked just like cars these days.

Everything relies on computers, everything is hooked up to one "grid" or "cloud", putting all our eggs in one basket. Just like monocropping. Just like hoping a superbug, resistant to our most poisonous pesticides, don't wipe out the whole harvest. So what if that happens?

Or what if yet another superbug makes everyone too sick to farm? I'm not sure ration cards can be used online, nor do they cover supplements. Food stamps don't even cover supplements. What if the next president ticks off Kim Jong Un, and he launches a nuke up in the atmosphere, disabling a 3rd of satellites like the US did in the 50s/60s? Or maybe it was the UK. Either way, there goes the internet.

So considering that the vegan diet requires either enough people to farm, computers to do it for us, or the space and skills to grow enough food yourself....And even with a big agriculture industry, y'all still seem to need supplements....Could any of you even survive a natural or manmade disaster that threatens our already-vulnerable food security?

Could you survive without the internet to buy vitamins, the modern technology farmers rely on, or those farmers alive and well to farm for you? Please tell me you guys at least know how to identify wild edible plants for when they reclaim the Earth? I'd hate to think any of you would starve. :(

I actually think you make a very good point. It's good if we can be mindful of a practical "plan B" in case of emergencies such as you mention.
This was something I was thinking about the other day, when on a walk.

Yes I can identify many wild edible plants in my area. That is one of my interests and has been for years. Foraging, preparing and storing for winter also.

I used to grow many food crops in my garden....only stopped for various practical reasons at the time (having to travel every few weeks to visit my old mother, no-one to tend the vegetables while I was away for ages, a super-active dog around who needed 2 3 mile walks per day....etc).... and turned it back to grass/shrubs. Also because of veg being very cheap in store, it was much easier and less labour-intensive to buy it.
But under an emergency scenario have a half acre of land which I could turn back to food-producing. All I would need is viable seeds.

I do think that 'worst-case scenario' is something to bear in mind, so we don't all drop dead from lack of ability to be flexible and independent in case of cataclysm of any kind.

It's okay for me. I live in the countryside. But for people in towns and cities, roof gardens, balcony gardens, and community gardens are all worth investigating.

It is also important to have a "plan B" for water as well. A reliable natural spring is good to stake out, and mindfulness of water purification methods (hopefully without some 'gizmo' bought online!).
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  #44  
Old 10-09-2016, 08:25 PM
mogenblue mogenblue is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SerpentSun
I never said anything about a regular diet. This is about whether any form of meat would be eaten, were farms and supplements unavailable. I don't eat farmed meat. I hunt. Which is a lot easier than researching which wild plants are edible, or telling wild carrot from poison hemlock. Though I would recommend learning that too. But you never have to worry about telling wild rabbit from poison hare.

SerpentSun, do you mean that women should hunt for their food too?
Do you mean that factory workers and office workers should lay off their overalls and take off their ties and go into the woods to hunt for their food?
And what about senior people, people in hospital and people in jail?

Don't you eat bread, rice, pasta or potatoes at all?

Last edited by mogenblue : 10-09-2016 at 10:55 PM.
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  #45  
Old 10-09-2016, 11:26 PM
SerpentSun SerpentSun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogenblue
SerpentSun, do you mean that women should hunt for their food too?
Do you mean that factory workers and office workers should lay off their overalls and take off their ties and go into the woods to hunt for their food?
And what about senior people, people in hospital and people in jail?

Don't you eat bread, rice, pasta or potatoes at all?

I AM a woman. I hunt, I gather, I cook, I clean house, and every man, woman, and child should learn those things. Same goes for lighting fire, finding water, and building at least a simple lean-to. And you don't wanna get me started on hospitals and prisons.

Ever heard of bush bread? Wild rice? Hopniss, also known as the potato bean? Or I suppose the tuber part would be a bean potato....

In short, yes. I think everyone should learn these things. Maybe less people would be in hospitals if they were more active in finding fresh food, and less people would be in prison if they were self-sufficient instead of committing crimes for money. Or if society didn't have all these safety nets for those who can't survive otherwise.

That's why we're too overpopulated and why no diet can support this world. So again, my main question: would you starve without farms and supplements? Could you grow your own food or forage for wild plants? Would you have to eat meat because you can't? Or would you accidentally eat something poisonous? Stop telling yourself you don't need a Plan B and just start planning.

That hopniss I told you about, the potato bean, grows wild all over the eastern US. Apios Americana. Other Apios grow in other places, probably one near you. Has 3 times the protein of a regular potato. Just a friendly tip, might come in handy someday.
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  #46  
Old 11-09-2016, 03:53 AM
Tobi Tobi is offline
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Thank you for information about the potato bean plant Serpent Sun. I had not heard of that before. From what I read about it it is not so unusual! And is avaliable as tubers to plant, even in UK.
I have heard it is very tasty too. I would like to try it. I have a lot of clay in my patch, under about 10" of topsoil. And a lot of shade except for high summer when the sun crests all the surrounding trees. It might not like it here, but it would be worth a shot I think.
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  #47  
Old 11-09-2016, 07:04 AM
mogenblue mogenblue is offline
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Hello SerpentSun,

Is there a tendency in your area of people moving away from urban areas back into the wild and uncultivated areas?

Do you see it happening that people overthere move out from villages, towns and cities back into the wild?

Does it make them happier and healthier?

What kind of a shelter do you have for the night? How do you protect yourself from rain and snow?

Do you have any specific knowledge about the situation in Europe that makes it reasonable for you to say that your situation can be copied to the European environment?

Have you ever been to Europe? Have you ever visited any large cities in Europe? Rome, Paris, London, Munich, Madrid, etcetera.
If life in the wild is better then why were those cities created in the first place?

Do you have any experience with the countryside in Europe? Or knowledge about it?

Do you know anything about the history of western society like why people boarded on the Mayflower to start a new life across the other side of the Atlantic? Or do you find that completely irrelevant?


I don't think that cities and urban life in general and its infrastructure in Europe will disappear anymore. That's not realistic. And I also think that moving to a plantbased diet would improve the physical and mental health of many people here in Europe; also in the US. Scientific research supports that. Earlier in this thread I have given a few links to resources about that.


Do you have any sound reason to think that a solar flare or an idiot nuking the magnetosphere, etcetera might hit our civilization in the near future and severely cripple our way of living?
Is that the reason why you yourself live in the wild? How long have you been living like that? How long did it take you to develop the skills to live a life like that? How much space do you need to survive like you live?
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  #48  
Old 11-09-2016, 09:16 AM
coelacanth coelacanth is offline
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SerpentSun, I agree with you that people should learn survival skills, except for two points:

1) Hunting makes up a small portion of food production in nearly all hunter-gatherer societies, and

2) There is fossil evidence that prehistoric humans cared for those among them who could neither hunt nor gather - one of those social safety nets you seem to dislike.
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  #49  
Old 15-09-2016, 06:54 PM
SerpentSun SerpentSun is offline
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@mogenblue There's a tendency for people in my area to be on meth.

As for people elsewhere in my country, elsewhere in the world, yes. The rewilding/primitivist/bushcraft/ancestral-skills community is far and few but bigger than I thought. Like I said, this lifestyle ain't for everyone. The number of successful back-to-the-land types is probably roughly equal to a prehistoric human population. Which is really all we need, enough humans to fill their niche in the ecosystem without taking over or destroying it. Not everyone alive is supposed to survive.

And the ones who are built for the wild, either by nature or nurture, often are healthier and happier. Just living out in a rural area on a farm is still healthier than the city. Dietary choices aside, the tightness of our crowds allows contagions to spread easily. Not to mention all the pollution of the city. I mean living off-grid certainly has its own challenges, which I guess I'll address in a moment. But living as part of the ecosystem is immensely more satisfying because you learn to appreciate the most basic gifts God/Nature provides.

And there's so much more freedom. Especially if your family is small, which is also a great way to help the overpopulation problem. Unfortunately my family isn't small. So right now my freedom to hunt and gather is limited. With the midwest prairie in this awful state, eating enough requires a somewhat nomadic lifestyle. I'm currently stuck caring for my mother-in-law after surgery so I'll probably be in my hometown for the winter.

With a foot in each world, "normal society" versus being part of the food chain, I have enough experience in both to say I prefer the latter. Yes I'm aware that it's a strange, insane, dangerous, selfish, dirty, etc lifestyle, but I've never been healthier or happier in my life since I said "screw modern society". But it's a process.

Like I said, we're living with my mother-in-law right now. I'm pretty much her live-in nurse, maid, and groundskeeper, working for food and board, sharecropping her half-acre property. My garden is a mix of foraged local plants and exotic close relatives of what I can't find in the wild. I'm grateful for my plant friends and our plastic-based shelter, but I'd rather live in a small hut out in the woods. That's my shelter from rain and snow.

I lived that way for a couple years, in huts and lean-tos as a nomad in the central US. But unfortunately everybody "owns" the land and "squatting" is illegal. Fun fact: squatting to pee strengthens the thighs, hips, and core, making childbirth easier. But that's a bit off topic.

Point is, finding or building shelter from the rain and snow isn't too hard. I've been hiking, camping, and practicing bushcraft for the past 10 years. It only takes a few hours to build a small snug little hut if you know what you're doing. A fire outside the entrance (or inside if the hut is a bigger long-term structure) provides warmth, as does my lover and our big dog to snuggle with on winter nights. The soil here is also very clayey, which helps to waterproof structures.

But that aforementioned land ownership problem....There is no free wild land anymore, it's either private, corporate, or government "property". So the only options are to buy land or tresspass somewhere. We've gotten away with squatting in state parks and leaving a small footprint, but I know we'll get caught eventually. Fires draw attention, and while we were on our own before, we have other family members to feed and shelter. So I'm looking for forest land to "buy" while I care for my mother-in-law.

Dig a well, filter and distill the water, build several huts, cabins, and cottages on the land, feed our family with a combination of food forest, wild gardens, and a few exotic crops. There isn't enough free healthy land yet to live a fully hunter-gatherer lifestyle. But while no agricultural empire has lasted for more than a few thousand years, hunter-gatherer cultures like the African San and North Sentinel islanders have lasted for 50,000 years unchanged. 200 times longer than the US has been a country.

The ancient Egyptians lasted about....2500 years? They never thought their cities would disappear either. But it keeps happening over and over again: the bigger an agricultural empire gets, the greater their technological "progress", the stronger their effect on their natural habitat....the harder and faster they fall. The quicker pathogens spread through the thick crowds, the more people fight over dwindling space and resources, and the harsher Earth punishes us trying to rebalance her natural cycles. It happened to the Egyptians, Greeks, Persians, Romans, and it'll happen to this globalized society too. They were much smaller, lasted much longer, and thought they'd last forever. The North Sentinelese outlived them all.

What makes you think those calamities WON'T happen? Do you really think scientific studies aren't biased by the corporations that fund them?
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  #50  
Old 15-09-2016, 07:28 PM
SerpentSun SerpentSun is offline
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@coelacanth Depends on season, sex, age, and climate. Flesh doesn't preserve in the fossil record nearly as well as fibrous plant material. A lot of cultures did indeed eat a lot of foraged plants, especially in the warmer months. But meat was much more abundant in colder weather and Arctic climes.

And caring for disabled and elderly family members is completely different from the impersonal industry of modern medicine. Feeding Grandma isn't the same as....hrm....transplanting hearts to those with cardiac defects and prescribing immunosuppressant carcinogenic drugs so they don't reject the organ, resuscitating victims of 95% 3rd-degree burns so they can be in a coma for 3 months and suffer through several surgeries a year for the rest of their life, or charging thousands of dollars for fertility treatments to help the infertile and those with congenital birth defects reproduce.

That's why the rates of chromosomal disorders, certain cancers, and neurological problems keep going up despite our "progress". And why we're so overpopulated.

There's too many humans because natural selection doesn't get to choose who lives. Even the most deadly and disabling conditions are treated, through resuscitation, induced comas, fertility treatments, drugs that just cause more problems, then sticking a massive medical bill up the family's butts. So every human lives no matter how much they suffer.

It's just like how we bred wolves into pugs with widespread respiratory and skeletal problems. The medical industry rakes in $200 billion a year keeping human populations growing, living, but sick. Healthy-sized animal populations as part of a balanced ecosystem simply don't have as many health problems.
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