Thwarting Unwanted Advances with Love and Kindness

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Imzadi

Aww, thanks for the love and kind words!

Right back atcha

Peace & blessings
7L

[Jack of Spades]

This was a positive thread to read. Thank you for everyone who contributed to the high quality conversation. I try to add my 2 cents to the conversation by answering to some of the points NG is raising, but I intend this to be a general answer to the thread:

Originally Posted by Nature Grows

Some other reasons that i have heard from men are, these are reasons some men don't want to be friends with the women: They feel feminism has destroyed the western womans mind, they don't want to be involved with them, the real feminie lady is what a lot of men find attractive.

Allow me to suggest a bit more complex point of view. Please note that what I'm saying will apply to very many topics, not just women+feminism:

When a woman becomes a "feminist" she practically becomes willing to fight for her rights, she becomes a fighter. When someone becomes a fighter, it is essential that they will also develop a cultivated sense of justice. A fighter without a sense of justice will become an indiscriminate barbarian, a warrior who cuts down the innocent with the guilty. The women you are referring to are likely the kind of women who have only learnt one part of the equation, willingness to fight while having a poor sense of justice in determining when and who to fight.

In my opinion it's the wrong answer to try to turn back time, and tell women to never fight or take a stand and wait for men to do it for them. I think the answer is to embrace a version of feminism that embraces sense of justice alongside with the willingness to fight; - fight the guilty, not the innocent, and have a sense of proportion.

I have gotten to know a woman who is a strong feminist but has a wonderfully cultivated sense of justice. She is a wonderful person whom I deeply admire and has greatly helped me to get over my resentment towards feminists. The word that defines such a woman is "trustworthy"; she will give you the treatment you deserve, whether that's good or bad. I, for one, love such people.

In my opinion, it's not the willingness to fight for equality that you should oppose, but rather keep promoting the importance of sense of justice in that fight.

[Tuesday]

Narute Grows, i have one thing to say to you.

It seems you are afraid that gays and trasngender people are making gayness and being transgender a norm. It will never be, as much as we spread the information to children that it's ok to be transgender, the children who aren't transgender wont suddenly say "ok. I'm going to go to gender reassignment surgery."
The beautiful thing about spreading info and acceptance towards being gay and/or transgender is good, because it helps those who *already are* to be more free about it.

[Imzadi]

Thank you Jack and Tuesday for joining the conversation and offering your insights. I appreciate it! I am glad that we all, in this thread are able to talk about issues that can sometimes be polarizing and controversial in a positive and proactive way that brings more healing and understanding.

Last night I went to bed feeling out of sorts because the conversation went in a direction that brought up a lot of pain particularly about the loss of my friend, Angel Boy, whom I mentioned in my earlier post. I wanted to write and say the right things so that it could be understood soulfully and I didn't want to make any mistakes. I thought of my friend and his beautiful Spirit and prayed that God watch over this thread so that we can maintain a positive space.

Later today I saw the numbers 333 in the forums and it made me smile because that was Angel Boy's number and time when he left this Earth. And then I later saw that one of 7L's posts on this thread the time stamp was, "Today, 03:33 PM" and I just started welling up with emotion and crying. Wow. What a powerful psychic experience. I can also feel his presence and Angel Boy sends his love. He is with me guiding my words. I am still crying right now but in a good way. <3

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Jack of Spades

This was a positive thread to read. Thank you for everyone who contributed to the high quality conversation. I try to add my 2 cents to the conversation by answering to some of the points NG is raising, but I intend this to be a general answer to the thread:

Allow me to suggest a bit more complex point of view. Please note that what I'm saying will apply to very many topics, not just women+feminism:

When a woman becomes a "feminist" she practically becomes willing to fight for her rights, she becomes a fighter. When someone becomes a fighter, it is essential that they will also develop a cultivated sense of justice. A fighter without a sense of justice will become an indiscriminate barbarian, a warrior who cuts down the innocent with the guilty. The women you are referring to are likely the kind of women who have only learnt one part of the equation, willingness to fight while having a poor sense of justice in determining when and who to fight.

In my opinion it's the wrong answer to try to turn back time, and tell women to never fight or take a stand and wait for men to do it for them. I think the answer is to embrace a version of feminism that embraces sense of justice alongside with the willingness to fight; - fight the guilty, not the innocent, and have a sense of proportion.

I have gotten to know a woman who is a strong feminist but has a wonderfully cultivated sense of justice. She is a wonderful person whom I deeply admire and has greatly helped me to get over my resentment towards feminists. The word that defines such a woman is "trustworthy"; she will give you the treatment you deserve, whether that's good or bad. I, for one, love such people.

In my opinion, it's not the willingness to fight for equality that you should oppose, but rather keep promoting the importance of sense of justice in that fight.

Well said. I absolutely agree we all need to cultivate a solid, grounded, and refined sense of justice, along with maturity, ownership, kindness, honour, and integrity needed to become trustworthy.

There's also something else at play. There is the individual level of person-to-person and there is the collective level of the culture/norms and society/institutions. We can absolutely be decent and honourable at the personal level OR not (we may be dishonourable etc)...and yet we may indirectly complicit on another, meaning you benefit from the system.

My son brought this up to me last night...his usual musings. He is 13 and they are light years ahead of us in loads of ways

In light of the gun violence and the knife violence in our various countries, he asked if it white male self-loathing was a problem for society and I said it's not good because everyone should be able to feel ok for who they are and particularly for things they cannot change. He then said what's racism (my definition) and I said old-fashioned racism is discriminating against folks for their colour or ethnicity. And he was finishing my sentence with me, LOL. He said so anyone can be racist right? And I said yes, of course.

Then I said..."however there's also institutional racism and" (here he did finish and I let him)..."that doesn't apply to white males". And I had to stop and say, yes, that's basically it. So there you have it. Though of course it applies more so to wealthy elite white males...but thus far it is still true in the modern era.

However this artificial spectrum of preference and reward exists alongside the artificially constructed divides of class (elite vs all else) and/or of government (authoritarian vs democratic). It may be in future that racism will matter less only because we are all desperately deprived and oppressed...but wouldn't it be better to empower everyone and raise the standards for all, so as to ensure we don't have to deal with that nightmarish future?

No one should ever be unkind or point the finger at an individual, because we all deserve respect and kindness and affirmation of our right to exist and to be present. On the other hand, there's something to be said for waking up to the need to be more inclusive and accepting not only individually but also in our culture and in our social institutions. Whilst we still have rights and means to do so...and so that we can continue to expect, to press for, and to outright demand these fundamental rights of humanity going forward.

Peace & blessings
7L

[Jack of Spades]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

There's also something else at play. There is the individual level of person-to-person and there is the collective level of the culture/norms and society/institutions. We can absolutely be decent and honourable at the personal level OR not (we may be dishonourable etc)...and yet we may indirectly complicit on another, meaning you benefit from the system.


...and so that we can continue to expect, to press for, and to outright demand these fundamental rights of humanity going forward.

I actually think that this is a bit of a problematic point of view because it expects people to reform something most people have zero power over.

In order to reform institutions and alike, one needs power over the said institutions. A normal person who doesn't hold any position of power, has practically zero power on that regard (let's face it, most votes we cast, don't change anything). Holding people responsible for something they have no power over is effectively just fruitless promoting of guilt.

I can't help but to notice that your 13-year old mentioned the phrase "white male" two times. That practically tells me that he's repeating something he has heard being offered repeatedly as a standard phrase. Being a white male myself, this kind of casual, habitual demonizing of white males bothers me. I hope there was a better way to communicate the message of equality than this type of casual demonizing of white males.

[Jack of Spades]

*double post*

[Imzadi]

Originally Posted by Jack of Spades

Being a white male myself, this kind of casual, habitual demonizing of white males bothers me. I hope there was a better way to communicate the message of equality than casual demonization of white males.

It is problematic that some social justice advocates unfortunately end up alienating white males in one massive sweep of generalization. This type of alienation creates discord and can sometimes make enemies instead of allies. While white males may have privilege and precedence over other groups of people in many places around the world, it is much better to appeal to their humanity and honor instead of making them feel like they have done something wrong.

Some of my hetero-sexual white male friends understands and recognizes that they have certain advantage over women, people of color, and people of alternate sexual orientations. They use their power and voice to add to the conversation to assist in the fight for equality.

So many men came out in support of their mothers, wives, girlfriends, sisters, and friends due to the #Metoo movement. These men shows us the grace and elegance of what being a man really means. The attractiveness of masculinity lies in a man's noble character and his integrity. His strength lies in his compassion and his assertive ability to affect positive change not only for himself but for the world.

[Nature Grows]

..

Ok, im just gonna get through all these comments kinda quickly because there is a few of you talking to me, i have stuff to do also but ill reply to the others i don't get now later. thanks guys. sorry 4 any typos if any.

Originally Posted by Imzadi

I respect your civility and appreciate you engaging in a thoughtful productive manner. I think it is crucial that WE as humanity continue this conversation. in your previous messages you tend to insist that you have nothing against LGTB+ communities, yet your words, attitude, and mindset often suggests that you take offense to how you perceive that they negatively affect society particularly when it comes to the socialization of children.

You cannot have it both ways; saying you having nothing against one thing while relentlessly demonizing it. If I think something is harmful (such as ignorance and intolerance), I would speak out and voice against it because it is the responsible and compassionate thing to do as a human being. I see that while we don't share the same view points, that I like to think that's where you are coming from also. You tirelessly continue to point out what you perceive as negative impacts of the LGBT+ community because you truly believe it. So while it is unfortunately misguided, perhaps I am naive, but I like to think that you have good intentions. We keep circling around the same thing and I think we have both said all that we can possibly say at this point. I have one last thing to say, while I am celibate do not identify with any sexual orientation, I am very much a part of the vibrant LGBT+ community. We are teachers, doctors, social workers, Reiki practitioners, police officers, librarians, dancers, artists, soccer players, mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, sons, and daughters. We are human beings just like you. :)

Ok to clear this up, when i say i have nothing against gays but you think im demonising them at the same time, this is the thing, i have no problem with gays (someone being gay, i dont care) and all of them that live there life and are respectful of others, there are people who are gay who are just gay and they don't try tell others off and things there just living there life, however there is others who are gay trans or in the LGBT community or in other communities involved with behaviour as i mentioned in the other posts. So i guess you could say with all of these groups feminism, mgtow, ect.. they have/had people who were really about the well being of others in them at one stage THEN when they go you get these other individuals who just behave like children, play victim, demand respect try force there ideology, and wreck it, they make there cause, unproductive and harmful for society, hope that makes more sense.

Originally Posted by Imzadi

Lastly, thank you so much for our dialogue because I do feel that from a Spiritual perspective, it opens up our hearts and minds to be more LOVING and kind. I feel an immense love and friendship for you even though clearly we disagree on some very serious issues and I hope you feel the same. I think that's what we call Spiritual growth! :)

Thank you for the chat as well Imzadi, yup, have a nice day. and i don't dislike you either, ok.

Originally Posted by Badcopyinc

Buddha and Jesus both were un-intelligent and also lacking masculine according to your depiction of what a man is. I wonder how they ascended or even gained enlightenment while still on earth?

They say you can only understand another as deeply as you understand yourself.

Hello Badcopyinc, they both were good people, i don't know to much about Buddha i know just the basics about him though, but iv heard he did like to debate with people and also when it comes to Jesus, yes he was loving but also as iv said before he was about truth and justice, let me share something from the bible, when you read this just change his name the "i" to the truth.

"Do not suppose i have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For i have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. A man's enemies will be the members of his own household. Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me. Anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it."

-Jesus (Matthew 10: 34-39)

Originally Posted by Tuesday

Narute Grows, i have one thing to say to you.
It seems you are afraid that gays and trasngender people are making gayness and being transgender a norm. It will never be, as much as we spread the information to children that it's ok to be transgender, the children who aren't transgender wont suddenly say "ok. I'm going to go to gender reassignment surgery."
The beautiful thing about spreading info and acceptance towards being gay and/or transgender is good, because it helps those who *already are* to be more free about it.

If you go back and look at the other older thread where me and Imzadi discussed this topic once before you will see that i said, if a parent of a child wants to discuss this topic with them, thats good. I said if a gay person or a trans tragqueen comes into the class room to discuss there story to the children then that would be ok to, but the issue is the way they are going about it, which i talked about more in the other thread. When we had visitors at my school when i was younger be it, criminals, drug addicts or who ever... they came once, they came into the class room once, told there story and left.. now with these LGBT dragqueens they have coming into the class rooms of some of these schools, its not once, its many times and also the teachers in the class room are involved with the teaching to, its not a one time thing, its repetitive and they have books about it and everything, its like another subject almost, math, science, art, and how to be gay/trans. Many parents are against it.

[Imzadi]

I know we have wandered a bit off topic from the OP which is totally fine because I think having a fruitful organic conversation that evolves is good and meaningful especially when we are talking about important subject matter. So please go on ahead and feel free to share your thoughts whatever they may be.

However, I am just going to switch gears a little bit and get back to the OP in which I am struggling with how to proceed with some of my amorous romantic admirers. After taking in some of your advice, I realize that in my current situation, it's probably best to face them rather than ignore them which to me seems rude, snobbish, and cruel! Perhaps I may learn to cultivate some patience and humility in the process. I have accepted an invitation just now to go to a quaint and lovely weekend resort with one of the people that I mentioned and I hope that we have a good relaxing and Spiritually edifying experience together. It would be nice to get out of the city for a while and enjoy some hiking and fresh open air with a friend. Wish me luck. :)