WHOM TO WORSHIP SHIVA or KRISHNA ?

[neil]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

In my view, I have not "side stepped" your post...but in your view, I did. Whose view is more important?

That is what it is all about, isn't it? In your view, you are "right" and I am "wrong", but in my view, I don't give a damn WHO is "right" or "wrong"...I just know what I know, which isn't the same thing as what you know, isn't it?

Everybody thinks their truth is THE truth (like you mentioned in your previous post)...That your experience is YOUR truth, which is NOT the same as my experience being MY truth...and so, you are trying to get me to believe YOUR truth INSTEAD of MY truth...this is what all religions have done since time immemorial...It is why all the wars and strife has existed since the dawn of civilisation.

You said that I should educate myself more, but have you even read the Vedas? The Agamas? The Upanishads? The Shiva Purana? I mean, how can you even have a view on this subject if you have not? It is like me rubbishing the Bible and Jesus if I haven't even read it.

You only THINK you know, based on your own experiences, just like I only THINK I know, based on mine.

I mean, certainly I could fully go into the Saguna (attributed) and Nirguna (attributeless) aspects of Brahman (the Absolute), but for me, that is better done in Sanskrit as there isn't really any English equivalent...and you can't read Sanskrit but I can, so what can I do?

I mean, I would LOVE to discuss the Vimarsha of Purusha expressed through Kriya and Jnana Shakti, but I would totally lose you after the first few words.

Although, about my conditioning...

I will always do the OPPOSITE of what anybody tells me or advises me...I look at their lives and say to myself "I don't want to end up like THEM" and this goes back to my childhood, when I would never do what my parents told me to do, because they were the most pathetic, miserable creatures God ever put breath into.

So, to assert my individuality and my own "person", I will do the opposite of what anybody else says or does...and I don't want to be any different. So, you are really wasting your time with me...and take a leaf from "NoOne's" book... approaching me as a friend and not as an advisor or accuser when speaking to me will get you further with me, or else yep, I will just clam up or tell you to eff off...get it?

It is so, that after a few posts, you reply with the above kind of offering.

And as you have said above, is that I have no knowledge of your spirituality, however all spirituality is basically based on the same foundations, with slightly varying ways of expressing it.

To say the least, there are...gods, demi gods, demons, spirits, potions, kundalini, karma, mantras, and or medative practices to reach all maner of said ecstatic..so to speak..ways of being, that never seem to reach the very sort after nirvana state, and if anyone believes that they have reached that state of being it last but a short time.
It all is drawn from preceding races many many thousands of years previous...just rehashed accordingly, to suit the leaders of the sects/religions.

And as it has been said and as I am aware there are literally tons and tones of spiritual beings ready and waiting to fool one and all into believing all manner of false hoods, whilst saying that they will assist Earthlings in spiritual life, but as you know there is always only pain, suffering, lies & deceit. It has been this way for many thousands and thousands of years, infact since the first parents were placed on Earth.

And there is no one in this universe that will ever manage to suck me into it all. PURE HUMBLE LOVE IS THE ONLY TRUE WAY OF BEING, WITH A VIEW TO THE NEW BIRTH OF SOUL...THIS WAY OF BEING IS TRACED BACK TO THE FIRST PARENTS.

And you Dianne do not respond well to anyone who befriends you, and from what i have gleaned from your many posts which claim that you have been slighted once again....makes me wonder as to exactly why.

Now, i have openly responded to you, as i have in this post, because once again after a post or two you have turned to anger and accusations, publicly, posting as you did.

My endeavours are only to suggest to you, that there is far more to your ill health, loneliness and un happiness, and i have tried to talk to you about it previously on a number of occasions. But you do as you put it..CLAM UP and become defensive, and you claming up, is not because of the way I speak to you.


Again i offer a humble smile to one and all..regards Neil.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by neil

It is so, that after a few posts, you reply with the above kind of offering.

And as you have said above, is that I have no knowledge of your spirituality, however all spirituality is basically based on the same foundations, with slightly varying ways of expressing it.

To say the least, there are...gods, demi gods, demons, spirits, potions, kundalini, karma, mantras, and or medative practices to reach all maner of said ecstatic..so to speak..ways of being, that never seem to reach the very sort after nirvana state, and if anyone believes that they have reached that state of being it last but a short time.
It all is drawn from preceding races many many thousands of years previous...just rehashed accordingly, to suit the leaders of the sects/religions.

And as it has been said and as I am aware there are literally tons and tones of spiritual beings ready and waiting to fool one and all into believing all manner of false hoods, whilst saying that they will assist Earthlings in spiritual life, but as you know there is always only pain, suffering, lies & deceit. It has been this way for many thousands and thousands of years, infact since the first parents were placed on Earth.

And there is no one in this universe that will ever manage to suck me into it all. PURE HUMBLE LOVE IS THE ONLY TRUE WAY OF BEING, WITH A VIEW TO THE NEW BIRTH OF SOUL...THIS WAY OF BEING IS TRACED BACK TO THE FIRST PARENTS.

And you Dianne do not respond well to anyone who befriends you, and from what i have gleaned from your many posts which claim that you have been slighted once again....makes me wonder as to exactly why.

Now, i have openly responded to you, as i have in this post, because once again after a post or two you have turned to anger and accusations, publicly, posting as you did.

My endeavours are only to suggest to you, that there is far more to your ill health, loneliness and un happiness, and i have tried to talk to you about it previously on a number of occasions. But you do as you put it..CLAM UP and become defensive, and you claming up, is not because of the way I speak to you.


Again i offer a humble smile to one and all..regards Neil.

The thing is though, who is one to use their human EGO to judge and criticise which beings are "fooling them" and which beings are not? What judiciary standard does a human with limited experience and intellect say; "that being is a Demon, but that one there is an Angel?"

I mean, the best Demon can appeal to the human EGO by using flowery words of love...giving the human what it WANTS and not what it NEEDS...pacifying it into self-righteous oblivion and making the human say "this must be an Angel".

Meanwhile, the best Angel will kick the human, not pander to the EGO, give the human what it needs to grow...which may NOT be what the human wants...and the human will say "begone Demon!" and the Angel will sigh and go "if that's how you see it, then as you wish".

All I am saying is that you are still being preachy and self righteous by even that reply you made above, but you just can't see it.

The Gaudiya Vaishnavas call Shiva a "Demon" and a "Devil" but that is what THEY believe, so if one is NOT a Gaudiya Vaishnava, why should they even believe as THEY do?

It is exactly the same with you and me. Neither of us believe what the other does and I am totally willing to let it go and "agree to disagree"...but will you? Nope!

Why did you post in this thread in the first place? Why visit the Hindu forum and not make a post in "Spirituality" or "General Religion" if you are not religious or sectarian? You just posted here to take another poke at me, didn't you? I mean even the "user who will remain nameless" doesn't cut it. You follow me around like a lost puppy, after me telling you many times to leave me alone. It isn't any wonder you are on the staff's radar.

So, I actually took you off my ignore list to respond to your posts in this thread, but because you are still failing to understand me...to know that I worship Lord Shiva, chant mantras, do Kundalini Yoga and other HINDU THINGS and I won't give any of that up just to satisfy YOU and make YOU happy...

So, if this continues, I WILL report you.

Now, when I was chanting, I WAS "side stepping" your posts...but when I actually took the time to be bothered replying to you, I was not...funny how you only mentioned it then.

Have a nice day.

SMILES.

[Shivani Devi]

Before I retire for the evening..

What one may see as "anger" or "defensiveness", another (usually the experiencer) will recognise as total frustration and impatience.

There is a reason why I suffer with illness, loneliness and unhappiness and it is NOT because I am possessed by any demon or following the wrong path. It is because I am fully holding my power back and it is eating me alive.

My previous post was just a small taste of what happens when I "sit in my power" and it tends to get way more intense than that.

Funny thing is, there is no anger, hatred or malice...no emotions at all... just smug retribution towards human stupidity which leaves my "victims" in foetal position on the floor...So I try and keep a tight leash on it, but it eats at me because I know what I am fully capable of and it scares me as well...It isn't anything "evil" or "demonic"...more like "don't play mind games with me and expect to win". I don't suffer fools gladly and all of MY suffering is caused by trying to tolerate idiots out of some mislaid sense of compassion. I am not being "true to myself" and that is causing it.

[ajay00]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

One day...One fine day, I hope to have an honest to goodness discussion about Hindu philosophy on here, without another just parroting what a famous Swami has said because that is all they know.

Swami Vivekananda is considered as an authority on Hinduism, and his word is enough authoritative proof on the matter.

The Vedas and some of the Puranas have also stated that the Shivalinga is a cosmic pillar of light, and there it rests.

Interestingly, Shiva is the only Hindu deity who is revered as non-iconic, non-anthropomorphic in His temples.

I have visited many ancient Shiva temples, strictly barred to foreigners, and I have only seen the Shivalingam over there, in comparison to the Vishnu or Devi temples where the deities are clearly anthropomorphic. Shiva is also considered Adiguru or the First Teacher, and the greatest of the deities.

All this shows that Shiva indeed must conform to the cosmic pillar of light as taught in the vedas.

I have also elaborated on the correlation between God and light in major world religions, in this thread.

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...d.php?t=127748

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Anybody got any advice as to where I could meet others with similar intelligence because I feel like I am just wasting my precious time in this forum. It is totally beneath me.

Aum Namah Shivaya

The argument is that I perceive Shiva to be a cosmic pillar of light based on the Vedas, while you perceive Shiva to be Shankar, a tall, muscular longhaired Aghori like figure to be Shiva, which is just a picture based on the puranas and modelled on contemporary Bollywood actors.

Between the Vedas and Puranas, it is the Vedas that are authoritative, and not the puranas or smritis.

This is how many decadent customs like Sati, Thuggism or human sacrifice, untouchability, casteism, barring of foreign Hindus from all Hindu temples, have been repealed due to the efforts of the monotheistic Arya Samaj and Brahmo Samaj, which established that such customs and traditions have no basis in
the Vedas, and are just an outcome of recent writings in the smritis and puranas which are invalid sources of rules and regulations.

[ajay00]

Originally Posted by neil

So there it is, all explained and all very simple..the creator does not have to lift a finger "so to speak"...And we do not have to do anything either, but be "purely loving" and have faith and or have a pure desire for "Christ Consciousness"...SIMPLE.

This is the Hinduism forum, not the christianity forum.


If you ask me, I would say that Christ as a teenager travelled down the ancient Silk Route connecting the Middle East and India, through the numerous merchant wagons travelling back and forth, offering his services as a carpenter and arrived in India in around six months time, studied the religions and philosophies over there for few years, and returned back to offer a synchretism of Judaism, Buddhism and Hinduism. This would explain the similarities in rituals and teachings between the dharmic religiions and christianity.

This would also explain Jesus's absence in the bible in his teenage years and twenties.

Paramahamsa Yogananda, the zoroastrian enlightened master Meher Baba, Sri Sri Ravi Shankar had also stated that Jesus had lived in India during the unknown years mentioned in the bible.


Nicolas Notovitch , the Russian writer and journalist, based on documents he came across in India, had also written a book stating that Jesus had travelled to India and studied with the Hindus and Buddhists. Swami Abhedananda of the Ramakrishna Mission also wrote a similar book of Jesus in India, corroborating Notovitch's account.

The founder of the Ahmediyya sect of Islam( which emphasizes scholarship and nonviolence), Mirza Ghulam Ahmed, had also written a book named 'Jesus in India' stating that Jesus had lived in India as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_India_(book)

You might find this information interesting.

[NoOne]

Ajay, the idea that Jesus travelled to India to learn Yoga, Tantra or some other esoteric form of Hinduism or Buddhism is intriguing but based on many false assumptions.

The first false assumption is that JC was a real historical figure. There is no evidence for that whatsoever and the Romans kept very meticulous records, there is no mention of such a person at all in the time period when he was supposed to have lived.

Even if he was a real historical figure, rather than a mythical one, it would have made no sense whatsoever for him to travel to India, which would have taken him years and cost an incredible amount of money, certainly not something a carpenter could afford. There is a reason only traders ever attempted such long, expensive and dangerous journeys.

He could have received equally valuable insight into the mysteries in many other parts of the Roman empire, such as Egypt, which was really right across the border from Judea. The Egyptian mysteries were just as sophisticated and esoteric at the time as the ones in India, the only difference being that most of it is now lost and will never be retrieved.

[ajay00]

Originally Posted by NoOne

Even if he was a real historical figure, rather than a mythical one, it would have made no sense whatsoever for him to travel to India, which would have taken him years and cost an incredible amount of money, certainly not something a carpenter could afford. There is a reason only traders ever attempted such long, expensive and dangerous journeys..

The ancient Silk Route connected the Middle East and India, and hitchhiking the numerous merchant wagons passing forth and back through the Route, would have ensured Jesus arriving in India in a few months time, employing his services as a carpenter for food and travel without any expenditure of money. And ancient India included modern day Afghanistan, which was Buddhist and is famous for its buddhist statues which were recently destroyed by the taliban.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhas_of_Bamyan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_Road

[Jainarayan]

There were also sea routes from the Middle East to South Asia. And while the Romans did keep meticulous records, he probably wasn't important enough to them to be written about directly. After all, even the gospels were written 70-100 years after his death.

[NoOne]

This is the Hinduism forum, so I don't want to turn this into a discussion about the historicity of Jesus Christ. Suffice to say that there are similar doubts about other famous religious figures, such as Mohammed, though they're perhaps less compelling. In any case, his supposed stint in Kashmir stands on very shaky grounds to say the least, but I guess that doesn't matter to people who believe in him. To me, bringing him into the picture, as regards Hinduism, was always going to be a fruitless enterprise and many have tried to do just that.

I went to a catholic school in Southern India (only for 2 years, but still...) and I must say, Christianity has certainly taken root there. Most of my classmates were actually Hindu but quite a serious effort was made to promote Christianity and Roman Catholicism in particular, which is one of the most evil and destructive forces in the world today.

I was brought up a Roman Catholic, especially because of my Polish mother (my father is a protestant), but frankly I have nothing but contempt for this evil and sinister organisation. The child abuse cover-up by the previous pope alone (whilst he was in a different position) is enough to make one question the entire edifice that is Western Christianity. Perhaps the Eastern, Orthodox version is more authentic, but it is hard to judge at this point.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by ajay00

Swami Vivekananda is considered as an authority on Hinduism, and his word is enough authoritative proof on the matter.

The Vedas and some of the Puranas have also stated that the Shivalinga is a cosmic pillar of light, and there it rests.

Interestingly, Shiva is the only Hindu deity who is revered as non-iconic, non-anthropomorphic in His temples.

I have visited many ancient Shiva temples, strictly barred to foreigners, and I have only seen the Shivalingam over there, in comparison to the Vishnu or Devi temples where the deities are clearly anthropomorphic. Shiva is also considered Adiguru or the First Teacher, and the greatest of the deities.

All this shows that Shiva indeed must conform to the cosmic pillar of light as taught in the vedas.

I have also elaborated on the correlation between God and light in major world religions, in this thread.

The argument is that I perceive Shiva to be a cosmic pillar of light based on the Vedas, while you perceive Shiva to be Shankar, a tall, muscular longhaired Aghori like figure to be Shiva, which is just a picture based on the puranas and modelled on contemporary Bollywood actors.

Between the Vedas and Puranas, it is the Vedas that are authoritative, and not the puranas or smritis.

This is how many decadent customs like Sati, Thuggism or human sacrifice, untouchability, casteism, barring of foreign Hindus from all Hindu temples, have been repealed due to the efforts of the monotheistic Arya Samaj and Brahmo Samaj, which established that such customs and traditions have no basis in
the Vedas, and are just an outcome of recent writings in the smritis and puranas which are invalid sources of rules and regulations.

That is one huge tiger you have by the tail there:

1. I am not doubting for one second that Lord Shiva can appear as a Jyotir Lingam and never have. He can appear as anything He likes, really... anything whatsoever and He is not limited to or defined by ANY of it. I simply worship Lord Shiva as that being you call "Shankar" and many (not all) SHIVA temples have statue(s) of that being you call "Shankar" inside them and it has been like that since the 12th Century that I KNOW of.

You should start up a petition to have all of these so-called "SHIVA temples" remove the "Shankar" murtis from inside them OR rename the temple from a "SHIVA temple" to a "SHANKAR temple" so as not to offend the minority group of the Brahmakumaris. I wonder how far you'll get with that?

However and as for everything and everyone else...You will believe what you will REGARDLESS and I will believe what I will REGARDLESS and unless you can show me a verse from the VEDAS that states "Lord Shiva is NOT Shankar" or even "Lord Shiva can ONLY appear as a Pillar of Light", I will continue to do so and neither you, or anybody else can stop me... isn't it?

2. It wasn't the "Bollywood Actors" that portrayed Shiva as such, but they did help popularise it. I have seen lithographs from the 1800s depicting Lord Shiva as such...I have read the poems of Sambandar, a 7th Century TAMIL NAYANAR depicting Lord Shiva as such..

"His ears are beringed, he rideth the bull,
His hair is adorned with the crescent moon's ray,
White is he with ash from the burning ground swept,
And he is the thief who my heart steals away..."

Even the LINGAYATS, the Virashaiva movement of South India who worship Lord Shiva in LINGAM FORM, as an amulet around their necks, have written tomes of prose to Lord Shiva called VACHANAS, from the 11th Century to the 15th Century, which describes Lord Shiva better than ANY Bollywood Actor could portray...please, PLEASE read the works of Basavanna, Allama Prabhu, Akka Mahadevi... and many others besides.

3. If Sruti or the VEDAS is seen as the only true source of knowledge and information and the Puranas and Itihasas are NOT...Well then, there goes the Mahabharata and the Bhagavad-Gita along with it...Lord Krishna does not exist EITHER and that war never happened....Oh and the Ramayana didn't occur either because Sruti never SAID it did... in Hinduism, I notice that a lot of people just love to take from the Scriptures only what suits their argument and leave the rest, THEN hope to "have their cake and eat it too" under a different set of circumstances....logic dictates that it just doesn't work that way!

4. Not discrediting Swami Vivekananda, but the ONLY reason he came to prominence is because he introduced Hinduism to the WEST...The same as Yogananda, the same as Jiddu Krishnamurthi... WESTERN people only know about the "Holy Men" who made it to America or whom the American press was fascinated with.

Most of my teachers (and who are just as authoritative on the Vedas) nobody has even HEARD about, except for the people in that sampradaya...but because they are not POPULAR, nobody has even heard of them...Just because a Swami has "made it" in the West, doesn't make them any better or more qualified to give discourse on the Vedas than a Swami who didn't "make it" in India... popular opinion and Guru "idol worship" does not equal truth, because if they did not travel to America or if the American media took no interest in them, they would have remained in total obscurity and the world would not have been any the wiser.

Aum Namah Shivaya