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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Spiritual Development

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  #61  
Old 19-09-2019, 05:04 PM
HITESH SHAH HITESH SHAH is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Siemens
According this belief experiencing worldly pleasure and making other forms of worldly experiences are an essential part in the course of our evolution. Orienting oneself back toward non-physic experiences is just the last step in the journey of many incarnations. If we as souls choose worldly experiences in order to develop, it is just conclusive to conclude that our transformation will be the more intense the more and longer we make these worldly experiences.

Here are the general premises of such conclusions and if such premises are right , conclusions are also right .

1. Spiritual practice is very easy and can be started anytime by anybody at will . According to me this is incorrect . I will take the example of sports . A person may really know all the rules of the sports . But he has to play the sport and wants to come with flying colors in the sport , mere knowledge of the sport rules is grossly insufficient. Person requires dedicated practice of the sport to be able to excel in it . Even if you forego practice for some time , u may experience loss of excellence. The same goes with spiritual practice. If you do not orient yourself during the prime of your life , at the end of life nothing will come at will.

2. Life ends with death . This is a belief held widely and that leads to over-importance of matter (body) over spirit (soul) . But this again is wrong . After-life one gets the new body as per evolution of the soul/spirit. Human life is not at all guarantee .

3. Spiritual practice does not give material benefits. This again is a myth . I can tell you most leading scientists had a very degree of spiritual quotient. Take case of Einstein/ newton . Newton's book names start with word 'Philosophy' .

4. Thing like spirit does not exist at all . This also is a widely held belief . This also is wrong . During sleep you are just spirit .This roughly is 30% of your existence. When come into play (meaning you are wake ) , even the hard core young materialist also enjoys worldly pleasures at the most 6-8 hours (of course depending various factors) . This leaves one with balance 6-8 hours of awake life which can be / are really spiritual life . So things which really form such a large portion of life , definitely needs good care / nurturing and skilled handling.
  #62  
Old 19-09-2019, 09:53 PM
inavalan inavalan is offline
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I believe that the consciousness' experience in physical goes through the following stages of evolvement: instincts, emotions, intellect, intuition. Each one of these "abilities" of the consciousness goes from apparition, through dominance, to mastering. Each subsequent ability helps the consciousness in mastering the previous one.

For any stage of the manifestation of the consciousness, from mineral through plant, animal, to human, one of those abilities is dominant, while the others are either mastered, developing / dominant, incipient, or nonexistent.

Although marked by occasional jumps, the development of those abilities is continuous, overlaps, and in each stage of manifestation of the consciousness there is a variation between individuals.

If you compare almost any two related processes or entities, you can established each one's relative position on that progression of abilities of the consciousness: instincts, emotions, intellect, intuition. One can't stay on an instantaneously thought-responsive plane, as the higher planes are, as long as we don't master our emotions.

The answer to why we are here, what we are supposed to do / accomplish as humans: we mostly mastered instincts, are fully dominated by emotions, started to develop intellect, and have an incipient intuition.

We, humans, need to learn to master our emotions, and developing our intellect will help us.

Surely, we also practice creating reality.
__________________
Everything expressed here is what I believe. Keep that in mind when you read my post, as I kept it in mind when I wrote it. I don't parrot others. Most of my spiritual beliefs come from direct channeling guidance. I have no interest in arguing whose belief is right, and whose is wrong. I'm here just to express my opinions, and read about others'.
  #63  
Old 20-09-2019, 12:21 AM
davidsun davidsun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inavalan
I believe that the consciousness' experience in physical goes through the following stages of evolvement: instincts, emotions, intellect, intuition. Each one of these "abilities" of the consciousness goes from apparition, through dominance, to mastering. Each subsequent ability helps the consciousness in mastering the previous one.

For any stage of the manifestation of the consciousness, from mineral through plant, animal, to human, one of those abilities is dominant, while the others are either mastered, developing / dominant, incipient, or nonexistent.

Although marked by occasional jumps, the development of those abilities is continuous, overlaps, and in each stage of manifestation of the consciousness there is a variation between individuals.

If you compare almost any two related processes or entities, you can established each one's relative position on that progression of abilities of the consciousness: instincts, emotions, intellect, intuition. One can't stay on an instantaneously thought-responsive plane, as the higher planes are, as long as we don't master our emotions.

The answer to why we are here, what we are supposed to do / accomplish as humans: we mostly mastered instincts, are fully dominated by emotions, started to develop intellect, and have an incipient intuition.

We, humans, need to learn to master our emotions, and developing our intellect will help us.

Surely, we also practice creating reality.
I enjoyed/appreciated the panoramic-ness of your 'vision' pertaining to incarnation of the 'spectrum' of mind-n-spirit, inavalan. Also your seeing it as a dynamic progression.
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  #64  
Old 20-09-2019, 04:15 AM
janielee
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
Spiritualists deal with the communication with the dead. I didn't know this topic was about that.

Wow so smart, can’t pick up a point; use a nit pick, use a diversion.

Yes this is a spiritual forum. And by your standards, Jesus, Buddha, Rumi, and Meister Eckhart are all fundamentalist weirdos. Yeah we get it


Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
No, that's not true. Many people without any interest in spirituality help and improve society, create medicine, invent tech to help the disabled, help animals etc.

This notion that only a ''genuinely realised spiritual'' person can ''truly help this world'' is a fundamentalist statement, and smacks of elitism.
It makes any person irrelevant unless they're ''realised''. I would say anyone who wants to help, or puts their effort into it, can contribute.

“Even the smallest person can change the course of the future”

Indeed.

The world cycles and many are good people, contribute, help. Kindness is what makes the world go round and heart energy helps us smile.

Look back on history, look to the future, look to the present. Cycles, up down, happiness, sadness, depression, joy.

This is the cycle of life, and the spiritualistic person seeks a deeper peace and truth. They no longer paddle only on the surface, no longer operate mainly operate from ego and they may not act or “help” in the way you’d expect. Such people are rare. Yet their clarity serves you and I more than an ego driven mind. A suffering person can only help so much. Only the truly selfless serve God ceaselessly.

Agree everyone can help though. With thanks to all kind people of this world.

JL
  #65  
Old 20-09-2019, 06:46 AM
Altair Altair is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janielee
Wow so smart, can’t pick up a point; use a nit pick, use a diversion.
You said I ''hate spiritualists''. A rather strong assumption based on nothing..

Quote:
Originally Posted by janielee
Yes this is a spiritual forum.
And..?

I often get the impression from you that you dislike it when question spiritual beliefs. You often go like ''Jesus, Buddha, Rumi, Eckhart all speak the truth. Only idiots question their claims and what they said'' [in other words; an appeal to authority]. Sorry but I'm not a servant to any of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janielee
This is the cycle of life, and the spiritualistic person seeks a deeper peace and truth. They no longer paddle only on the surface, no longer operate mainly operate from ego and they may not act or “help” in the way you’d expect. Such people are rare.
What does it mean to ''paddle on the surface''? What does it mean to ''operate from ego''?

Quote:
Originally Posted by janielee
Only the truly selfless serve God ceaselessly.
I could argue that there's no such thing as a ''truly selfless'' person. Everyone needs food, water, a place to live in, and meaning in their lives. There's a degree of selfishness in all people.

We find rather narrow definitions in spiritual traditions when it comes to such things as ''selfishness'', ''pleasure'', ''non-attachment'' to the point it stops making sense after a bit of examination [as no functioning human lives up to the standards] and we are perhaps better off looking at the world and society in the simplest way possible and see how even flawed people can do great things, how spirituality is a form of pleasure too, and how spiritual people cannot be ''non-attached'' to a great many things.

Last edited by Altair : 20-09-2019 at 07:54 AM.
  #66  
Old 20-09-2019, 03:29 PM
Greenslade
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
What does it mean to ''paddle on the surface''? What does it mean to ''operate from ego''?
"Paddle on the surface" is a tactic employed by some people to infer that their being Spiritual somehow gives them a more profound understanding of the Universe. Really it's judgement, nothing more. Being Spiritual is an attachment to ego and all that it infers to the person using it.

"Operate from ego" is often used by people who ignore any knowledgable - either psychological or Spiritual - definition of the ego in order to think they have transcended the ego. This is a classic trap of the ego.

In Spirituality there is "I am," and all else is formless. In Latin it means "I" and according top most dictionary definitions, ego is a sense of self-worth, exaggerated or not -
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ego
Where that definition applies to Spirituality is -
"the one of the three divisions of the psyche in psychoanalytic theory that serves as the organized conscious mediator between the person and reality especially by functioning both in the perception of and adaptation to reality"
All individual reality is subjectively processed, whether experientially or in the accumulation of information.

So the ego is essentially the source of your conscious, subjective reality. "I am Spiritual" is conscious, subjective reality.

In simple terms, Jung's most simple definition is that the ego is a sense of "I am." In that sense it become the expression of the Self (uppercase) into this reality - yourself.

Interesting, in Sanskrit, the word 'Ahamkara/Ahankara' as well as a few other words gives the same definition as Jung. In Ahamkara they are called "kara" or 'created objects/things' and in Jungian they're the 'contents' of the ego.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
I could argue that there's no such thing as a ''truly selfless'' person. Everyone needs food, water, a place to live in, and meaning in their lives. There's a degree of selfishness in all people.
I could argue that ultimately there is no self (there is no separation) or that there is nothing other than self, self being consciousness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
We find rather narrow definitions in spiritual traditions when it comes to such things as ''selfishness'', ''pleasure'', ''non-attachment'' to the point it stops making sense after a bit of examination [as no functioning human lives up to the standards] and we are perhaps better off looking at the world and society in the simplest way possible and see how even flawed people can do great things, how spirituality is a form of pleasure too, and how spiritual people cannot be ''non-attached'' to a great many things.
Definitions create your reality but that's not the full story. Underpinning definitions is your agenda (or reasons if you like something softer) and they are ego-based. Underpinning that again is your paradigm and that is the foundations of your subjective reality and how it is 'processed' - which includes your personal definitions of Spirituality and associated attachments. This is where people are operating from.

When we start realising that Spiritual is as Spiritual does and is not as Spiritual portrays itself, maybe then we'll make progress and realise that sometimes those people with flaws can be as selfless as the next Spiritual Aspirant. The original meaning for the word 'karma' is 'action', but again that's usually ignored because of agenda.

In Bhagavad Gita Lord Krishna says

"Air, water, earth, fire, sky, mind, intelligence and ahankaar (ego) together constitute the nature created by me."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
Everyone needs food, water, a place to live in, and meaning in their lives. There's a degree of selfishness in all people.
There you're going into Maslo's Hierarchy of Needs, the top of the pyramid being self-realisation. Which, incidentally, is the reason we're here. Spirituality can also be an answer to some of the most fundamental questions most (including non-Spiritual) humans have. "Who am I" and "Where did I come from?"
  #67  
Old 21-09-2019, 02:35 AM
janielee
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair

I often get the impression from you that you dislike it when question spiritual beliefs. You often go like ''Jesus, Buddha, Rumi, Eckhart all speak the truth. Only idiots question their claims and what they said'' [in other words; an appeal to authority]. Sorry but I'm not a servant to any of them.

LOL

Check is in the mail, congratulations


Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
What does it mean to ''paddle on the surface''? What does it mean to ''operate from ego''?

Great questions, I encourage you to source the answer without thoughts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
I could argue that there's no such thing as a ''truly selfless'' person. Everyone needs food, water, a place to live in, and meaning in their lives. There's a degree of selfishness in all people.

You argue a lot of things, but I hope what ever you do, it brings you peace.

JL
  #68  
Old 21-09-2019, 02:42 AM
janielee
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenslade
"Paddle on the surface" is a tactic employed by some people to infer that their being Spiritual somehow gives them a more profound understanding of the Universe. Really it's judgement, nothing more. Being Spiritual is an attachment to ego and all that it infers to the person using it.

"Operate from ego" is often used by people who ignore any knowledgable - either psychological or Spiritual - definition of the ego in order to think they have transcended the ego. This is a classic trap of the ego.

I would say 1. I have transcended nothing but 2. Don’t project your own experience and limitations on to the world and 3. You subscribe to psychological theories, all well and good and safer territories for those whom still need words, but that’s not the spiritual practices of the greats - even if that thought hurts your ego

You saw some things and figured spirituality is a mind game, something to be understood and noted through conceptual mind. I’m with a few others, the ones people like Altair disbelieve

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenslade
Definitions create your reality but that's not the full story. Underpinning definitions is your agenda (or reasons if you like something softer) and they are ego-based. Underpinning that again is your paradigm and that is the foundations of your subjective reality and how it is 'processed' - which includes your personal definitions of Spirituality and associated attachments. This is where people are operating from.

Indeed. This is you to a tee, I would say there are those who no longer operate from egoic mind, as hard as it is to believe for the many who can’t even understand what that even means

Namaste

JL
  #69  
Old 21-09-2019, 06:32 AM
Altair Altair is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
What does it mean to ''paddle on the surface''? What does it mean to ''operate from ego''?
Quote:
Originally Posted by janielee
Great questions, I encourage you to source the answer without thoughts.
It seems you have no answers to those questions yourself, janielee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janielee
You saw some things and figured spirituality is a mind game, something to be understood and noted through conceptual mind. I’m with a few others, the ones people like Altair disbelieve
And what is it I ''disbelieve'', janielee?
Would be nice if you could try and participate in the discussion here. That's what these threads are for.
  #70  
Old 21-09-2019, 10:27 AM
Siemens Siemens is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
Many spiritual narratives run on such assumptions, Siemens. Usually, a stark contrast is necessary; of believer vs. non-believer or those on the path vs. those that aren't. It can present itself as a be-all-end-all miracle cure. I think a lot of people in this world can be happy without religious beliefs. People that do have beliefs can be unhappy, so we have to look at other things to understand human happiness, which seems to depends on simple things:
  • Meaningful relationships
  • Purpose in life
  • A job and income
  • Nice place to live in
  • Good health
None of these depend on religious beliefs, on detachment, or meditation.

I’m studying psychology and the things you listed are (almost) exactly what Positive Psychology, the scientific study of happiness, postulates respective happiness. One central model (Martin Seligman's PERMA-Model) postulates the following fife dimensions:

- Positive Emotion (Nice place to live in)
- Engagement (A job and income)
- Relations (Meaningful relationships)
- Meaning (Purpose in life)
- Accomplishment (A job and income)

I myself developed another model according to which there are primarily two things that makes us happy:
(1) Perception of the Beauty (music, films, nature, architecture, cars, furniture, smell of food, taste of food, other people’s appearance, pleasant feeling of oneself….)
(2) Using your Talents or Being Expressive (being creative, being productive in your job life, doing sports, playing games, having a purposeful mission in life, volunteering...)


Relations for example are a combination of both: You appreciate the beauty of your partner and you can express yourself in the relationship (i.e. you can act and be yourself in the partnership)
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