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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > General Beliefs

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  #1  
Old 22-01-2018, 05:46 AM
Starman Starman is offline
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Exclamation Absolute Reality

Do you believe in an absolute reality? Absolute reality, or called by another name “ultimate reality,” just may be a matter of perception. If we accept ultimate reality as infinite then all we have done is acknowledged the scope of that reality but not its character.

The character of ultimate reality includes, but is not limited to, this so-called “physical world," or physical universe. Reality just may be a matter of perception, as we do not see the world as it is rather we see the world as we are; according to our conditioning, which influences our perception.

Still this begs the question of whether or not there is a collective reality, or universal perception; one might even say a “universal experience.” Birth and death happens to all sentient beings but it is perceived differently. External transformations, or change, is perceived differently, or interpreted differently, by different people. What I am writing here is my interpretation or perception.

Is there an experience that everyone perceives, or experiences, the same way? One might call that experience a universal reality, or is reality individualistic and not at all universal? Human beings seek out like-minded people; those people who see things the way that they do. Yes, there are objective realities removed from interpretation or perception, but one would have to believe in objectivity to embrace objective reality.

Once we have perceived something, that something is no longer “objective. “ Our perception interprets what we call “objectivity” into a subjective experience, and the more we interpret something the farther away from that something we get. We get to a point where all we have is our interpretation of that thing and not that thing itself.

All that we call “reality” we subject to our own interpretation. We label everything, including those things that we have no label for; those things are generally called “phenomena.” Putting a label on something makes it real for us, thus people want to know, “what do you call it?” In most cases, the label becomes more real for us than the thing that we have labeled.

I have long contended that God, the universe, creator, divine infinite, or whatever you may want to call it, is beyond thoughts and words. God, in my opinion, is unreasonable; that is to say beyond human reasoning. The human mind cannot image infinity, because the mind can only picture that which it can frame and infinity has no frame, no boundaries or borders.

I do not believe that ultimate “truth” is right or wrong, or something which we might agree upon. Generally religions are formed when people agree upon ultimate truths. Rather I believe that truth is something that each person should experience for themselves and interpret for themselves. In the journey of self-discovery know one will know you like you know your self. All experience is intimate.
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  #2  
Old 22-01-2018, 08:19 AM
Lorelyen
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Unless I'm a solipsist, there's something out there that triggers my senses and an inner means to interpret it. So I suppose thats an absolute reality in that the same stuff is presented to every sentient being, though I'm never going to find out what it is. I can sense what's there lumped together combinations that I recognise things if they endure.

I can't say the same for a collective perception. If there were, I can't see how it can be proved. Wilhelm Wundt tried to make a start but turned out to be fraudulent. The problem with psychology has always been that it cannot get to the raw data of experiences. Stimuli might produce outwardly similar experiences but individual, who can know?

A long while ago I asked someone who was guiding me through the early days of "spiritual awareness", the waking up, I suppose, as some people here call it and I asked what he thought reality was. He said, "Does it matter?"
.
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  #3  
Old 22-01-2018, 09:19 AM
H:O:R:A:C:E H:O:R:A:C:E is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorelyen
A long while ago I asked someone who was guiding me through the early days of "spiritual awareness", the waking up, I suppose, as some people here call it and I asked what he thought reality was. He said, "Does it matter?"
what was your answer?
from my vantage point, "reality" exists as a personal experience.
the question put to you was asking you to assess whether there was
value in the idea of "reality"... do you appreciate yourself and your
experiences?
[i do not deduce his query to imply that "reality" is without value.]
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  #4  
Old 22-01-2018, 10:14 AM
Starman Starman is offline
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Lorelyen and H:O:R:A:C:E, thank you for your contributions to this topic; very thoughtful responses.
Lorelyen does raise a point which H:O:R:A:C:E has inquired about, and that point is about “does it matter?”

Existentialism, as perceived by Victor Frankl, is all about “man’s search for meaning.”
Most people feel they cannot live without meaning or purpose; in fact, most people who
commit suicide do so because they feel they have lost meaning or purpose in their lives.

Now purpose and meaning does not have to be some lofty ideal or cosmic understanding.
Indeed, many just feel like the purpose of their life is to raise their kids or provide for their family.
Nevertheless, here in these “Spiritual Forums” people talk about “serving God” or some other lofty ideal,
and there are many questions here about seeking truth.

Religious and spiritually oriented folks often wonder where do atheists get their values and standards
for living because they, that is most religious and spiritual folks, attempt to emulate some cosmic
principles or what they perceive to be a spiritual experience, which they might refer to as a “higher calling.”

Can we live without labels, names, or nomenclatures? Does it matter what we call things?
I think to most it does matter, even though the reality beyond the physical may be a knowledge
that surpasses human understanding. Having worked in a hospice with people who were near death;
most found great comfort in believing that there was a greater reality beyond this physical world,
and most wanted to also try an codify that reality.
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  #5  
Old 22-01-2018, 11:40 AM
Greenslade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
Having worked in a hospice with people who were near death; most found great comfort in believing that there was a greater reality beyond this physical world, and most wanted to also try an codify that reality.
And what's happening in religion and Spirituality? Just that, people trying to codify a reality they perceive beyond themselves. I was a medium for a while and the common theme was people trying to contact Loved Ones that had passed over, and one of the maxims was 'proof of survival' - that there was an existence after death. The search for meaning has gone back many thousands of years, 12,000 years at least since the building of Gobekli Tepe. It was built when man was a hunter/gatherer, which is remarkable in itself because at a time when survival was paramount people took time out to built such a monument. In context it's amazing in so many ways. And here we are today, are we any closer to an ultimate reality, or are we simply more sophisticated at doing the same thing - seeking something outside ourselves because we haven't discovered what's inside?

I've been watching some documentaries of late about Christianity and the Life and times of Jesus. That's been an eye opener. Apparently Jesus' religious trail goes back to the Gnostics of ancient Egypt and this Gnosticism comes through in his own words. Constantine usurped Christianity for his own political agenda and that 'theme' is perpetuated by some to this day. Prior to this two schools of religion existed side-by-side - Christianity and Gnosticism. Basically, Christianity preached 'God without' - an external higher power while the Gnostics believed that the spark of God was in all of us. The two weren't the best of friends but Gnosticism was systematically wiped out post-Council of Nycea, Christianity won because of their political agenda. Constantine was a Pagan.

It's been said that if you don't know where you're coming from you don't know where you're going.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
Religious and spiritually oriented folks often wonder where do atheists get their values and standards for living because they, that is most religious and spiritual folks, attempt to emulate some cosmic principles or what they perceive to be a spiritual experience, which they might refer to as a “higher calling.”
I'm an atheist, does that make me a lesser mortal? Most religious or Spiritually-orientated folks don't even ask what atheists think, form what I've seen on these forums those folks are happy to stereotype atheists because of their own ignorant misconceptions. Even an atheist like me can adopt Jesus' treat others as your brother.

Throughout history the same themes are repeated over and over, 12,000-plus years later.

In discussions about 'The Dark' on these forums I've noticed one thing, that people are still scared of it and cling to their misconceptions about The Light rather than make the dark conscious. Jung might call that an archetype of the collective unconsciousness hailing back to the days when hominids were prey animals for lions and tigers and bears, oh my. Is it in our genes and we don't even know it? Running away from the dark is perhaps still a survival technique used today by Spiritual people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
most found great comfort in believing that there was a greater reality beyond this physical world, and most wanted to also try an codify that reality.
Around Gobekli Tepe people would bury their dead with reverence and leave them in the ground for a while. Later they would dig them up again and very carefully remove the heads, and take the heads into the household. That was most likely to maintain the links, but it showed that even in those days there was at least a hope or belief of some kind of connection to something beyond physical existence.

I don't know who is Spiritual and who isn't, even across history.
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  #6  
Old 22-01-2018, 02:49 PM
lemex lemex is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenslade
And what's happening in religion and Spirituality? Just that, people trying to codify a reality they perceive beyond themselves. I was a medium for a while and the common theme was people trying to contact Loved Ones that had passed over, and one of the maxims was 'proof of survival' - that there was an existence after death.

I wanted to mention something I found interesting and something that happened, there are cases of confirmed experience. I don't know if there is a maxim of survival of an existence after death but I have seen (knowledge) a maxim of other existence with and in life, though we are not part of it. None of us are. I just had a thought about that as we have always for 12,000 years called what others have seen paranormal or supernatural, when it just might be as normal as we are, life not life forms. In it's own self as ordinary and common as we are. There is more, reality we obviously don't (can't) see though which much be included on the scale of what reality is. I know we have always treated our form as always superior when it is merely life.

As far as codify, this may not be true. The thing is I don't have to codify that which we call the paranormal. One who has never had an experience cannot know the experience of it even though it may be part of reality. Some things are really difficult to imagine but like any potential may exist. I think there might be more then one type of life. I think without realizing it much of what we think is what we have been told which equates to belief we hold on to.

Again, this is interacting of alternate things we classify existing with life. Maybe this is where the idea of the after life came from. life we do not see normally but some have and will continue to see occasionally. That which we see sometimes are mistakenly linked with death and after life.
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  #7  
Old 22-01-2018, 03:46 PM
Lorelyen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H:O:R:A:C:E
what was your answer?
from my vantage point, "reality" exists as a personal experience.
the question put to you was asking you to assess whether there was
value in the idea of "reality"... do you appreciate yourself and your
experiences?
[i do not deduce his query to imply that "reality" is without value.]

I hadn't arrived at the question without thought anyway. My answer after a little contemplation was "Not really." It was there, I could rely on it, it endured, so I had to learn to manipulate it as necessary. I'd realised people didn't experience it as I did, that our perceptions were unique and we had created signs that let us refer to a phenomenon when directing others' attention to something - usually words.

Another thought I had that relates to one of Starman's comments, was that reality was a mass of signs. We give meanings to them, many are predefined but some need us to create meanings. If we can't we may be unable to give the whole a meaning. If we can't derive meaning from many sets of signs is that because the environment is remote from our previous experience, or that we're attempting to project a meaning deriving from some drive within us onto the signs the two being incongruous.

So, does reality come down to meanings or merely the recognition of signs? Perhaps both. If action/interaction is expected, meanings would seem paramount.
.
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  #8  
Old 22-01-2018, 09:05 AM
H:O:R:A:C:E H:O:R:A:C:E is offline
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the way i figure it, "absolute reality" exists, but in a universe distinct from
the one i inhabit. i understand "reality" to consist of experiences, which are
comprehended through perception. the word "absolute" means 'not qualified',
and 'total'... which, in the context of this discussion i take to mean 'completely
true' and 'without error'. since i experience "falseness", and can easily form
mistaken beliefs (based on imperfect perceptions?), and hold value in
'imagination'... i conclude that i'm not [fully?] in the realm of "absolute reality".

the universe is one thing, and i believe that there could well exist a 'universal
consciousness' which perceives "all that is" [itself]... the being of "God". i submit that
that consciousness would consist of the collection of thoughts which were the most
loving, since i see love as being the principle of inclusion which invites disparate
energies to coalesce into a 'uniform whole' (rather than to break off and form some
other universe?).
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  #9  
Old 22-01-2018, 03:13 PM
lemex lemex is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
I do not believe that ultimate “truth” is right or wrong, or something which we might agree upon. Generally religions are formed when people agree upon ultimate truths. Rather I believe that truth is something that each person should experience for themselves and interpret for themselves. In the journey of self-discovery know one will know you like you know your self. All experience is intimate.

There can no such things as ultimate truths, agreed.
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  #10  
Old 22-01-2018, 03:29 PM
Jyotir Jyotir is offline
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Exclamation



The absolute ultimate reality of real consequence in this world:
The awareness I consciously embody here within me, now at this moment.
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