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  #51  
Old 23-05-2018, 11:56 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eelco
I'm unsure what it is, but something about my perception of your authoritative tone in these discussions just rubs me the wrong way. First you stated again (and again) that we should take these discussions as the practice itself.


The thing is, if it isn't in practice then there's nothing Buddhist here.



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you take the effort to tell/teach us what these practices (I.E our conduct) should look like according to your understanding of the noble eight fold path



You seem to leave little room for interpretations outside what you have learned on your retreats by your instructors. Which seems strange to me, but there you go.






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The whole instruction, recipe and guidance discussion in my view was not about semantics but insights and a sharing of ideas about different modes of practice.


With Love
Eelco




To me, the discussion covered greater subtlety of the practical and ethical relation between instruction, advice, explanation, choice, and consent, and also implied something about refuge in the teachings aspect of 'dhamma'.
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  #52  
Old 23-05-2018, 12:25 PM
Eelco
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
The thing is, if it isn't in practice then there's nothing Buddhist here.

To me, the discussion covered greater subtlety of the practical and ethical relation between instruction, advice, explanation, choice, and consent, and also implied something about refuge in the teachings aspect of 'dhamma'.




Don't mistake the finger that is pointing etc.
If this is your view of which I have no doubt I'm fine with you calling anything besides your p.o.v nothing Buddhist.


You keep practicing on those threads. I'll keep challenging the narrowness of such an idea..


With Love
Eelco
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  #53  
Old 23-05-2018, 12:32 PM
Gem Gem is offline
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Originally Posted by Rain95
That's an interesting idea.... what do you actually do, not what do you say or write you do (or are doing to state it more accurately as all that actually exists is now) , . Then applying a bit of Zen, or selflessness, what do you do if you recognize and simultaneously realize the goal of being without a doer?


Hi. I forgot your post was here, but I was looking back for Samara's post and ran into yours.


It's a good question: what is there to do? It answers itself in two ways because the in RL there is a ton of stuff to do, but the spiritual question also inquires: what is there to undo? And what does an undoer even do? I think that's a subtle point about meditation as well... to do or not to do.




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Really one does not do it, being selfless, as that contradicts the whole thing and asserts a doer or self, the conceptual image stated as the doer. The point being no self, no doer, which is not about not being there, (or here more accurately) it's about what you are here as...but then here one can state it better as what are you here as not...


Because no concept..... the wait there at the end of that sentence....what I am here as....____________ There is no word that can be put there if you are selfless and awake. Words and concepts are recognized for what they are... ghosts that disappear in the light. In the present moment, words and concepts are simply overlays of belief on reality which serve no real purpose as far as one finding their way to a more enlightened and aware state of being. All of that is discarded.


Indeed, Buddha wasn't really into a bunch of theories and was more going for realising.


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So what am I actually doing?.... I am not doing. By doing nothing at all, I am doing everything necessary. I am that silence that exists between thoughts, between concepts, between ideas. But a lot of energy is expended to do nothing, and there is no one there to do or not do.... what is being done is a certain kind of awareness, a presence in the non-conceptual reality, like holding ones head out of the water in a swimming pool.....it takes an effort, but not a doer, not a self.... it is merely being awake to what is, and what is is no longer defined or solidified by thought and concepts.




Its different to what I'm used to hearing, but does fit well with 'right effort' in a no-self context (that's a thing in Buddhism, in case you didn't know), and pure observation to see it as it ("awake to what is") could be related to 'right meditation' ('nuther Buddhist thing) in a similar sense.
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  #54  
Old 23-05-2018, 12:35 PM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eelco
Don't mistake the finger that is pointing etc.
If this is your view of which I have no doubt I'm fine with you calling anything besides your p.o.v nothing Buddhist.


How do you explain talking Buddhist without walking Buddhist? Where's the congruency in that?


Quote:
You keep practicing on those threads. I'll keep challenging the narrowness of such an idea..


With Love
Eelco
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  #55  
Old 23-05-2018, 12:54 PM
Gem Gem is offline
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Originally Posted by Samana
I get the impression the moral vows you speak of are probably "The Five Precepts" which many Buddhists usually take formally after having taken Refuge.

Here are the Five Precepts:


1. I undertake the precept to refrain from destroying living creatures.

2. I undertake the precept to refrain from taking that which is not given.

3. I undertake the precept to refrain from sexual misconduct.

4. I undertake the precept to refrain from incorrect speech.

5. I undertake the precept to refrain from intoxicating drinks and drugs which lead to carelessness.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/...pancasila.html


Here also is a transcript of an excellent talk about Buddhist Refuge which was given by Ven. Ajahn Sumedho, a senior teacher with the Theravada Thai Forest Tradition:

http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma2/bds.html


May all sentient beings have peace and happiness _/|\_


.




I just revisited the conclusions of your article (fantastic article BTW) and just wanted to comment on something. The article concludes:


So may you reflect on this and see Buddha Dhamma Sangha as really a refuge. Look on them as opportunities for reflection and consideration [like I wuz sayin']. It is not a matter of believing in Buddha Dhamma Sangha, not a faith in concepts but a using of symbols for mindfulness, for awakening the mind here-and-now, being here-and-now.


It's right in saying "It is not a matter of believing in Buddha Dhamma Sangha, not a faith in concepts", but then it immediately introduces refuge as conceptual symbolic objects. However, when refuge is within the here and now = philosophy in practice.






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  #56  
Old 23-05-2018, 01:23 PM
Eelco
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
How do you explain talking Buddhist without walking Buddhist? Where's the congruency in that?

Well my perception is that I am walking the path. Your perception apears to show you people responding differently from what you consider right speech.

I'm congruent. Loving even in how I act and in what I say.
Somehow though you and possibly a few others seem to find fault in that. And contue to point to their perceived incongrueties.

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Eelco
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  #57  
Old 23-05-2018, 01:47 PM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eelco
Well my perception is that I am walking the path. Your perception apears to show you people responding differently from what you consider right speech.

I'm congruent. Loving even in how I act and in what I say.
Somehow though you and possibly a few others seem to find fault in that. And contue to point to their perceived incongrueties.

With Love
Eelco




The way I understood what you were arguing that seperating philosophy and practice is OK, so I asked how that is congruent because I don't see how it could be? If you can't or don't want to explian it, then OK.
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  #58  
Old 23-05-2018, 02:26 PM
Eelco
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Ah. I see. Sorry I misunderstood.

Philosophy in my mind is often a utopian description. In this case however the Buddha describes how one can reach that Utopia. He gives us pointers on what to do and how to view experiences along the way.

The practise is individual. Which means I can only measure my advancements in the path or discuss them with people that seem to know the territory.(guides if you will).

As for endulging others opinions on how to walk the path within the setting of a sub section full of people who I only know by the way the express themselves in writing according to their best abilities. Does not hold much Merritt on my scale attainments.

You seem to say everyone in the Buddhist subforum should utilize what you consider right speech as a baseline for conversation. That is not something I am comfortable with.

From my mind we can talk about Bhuddism as way to nibanna. Discuss what we experience. Share possible helpful ways of viewing our experiences and there it ends.

To give you an example. We discussed the notion of equanimety before.

If I remember correctly you view that aspect of Bhuddism as a quality to emulate as a base for viewing your experiences.
I tend to see equanimety as a natural result of following some recepies. Not as something I have to mimic when it isn't part of my experience.

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Eelco
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  #59  
Old 23-05-2018, 07:59 PM
Rain95 Rain95 is offline
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The pavlova we are talking about is a natural thing that is present to all. It's like an apple sitting on a table in front of you. Don't need any instructions or authorities or religions or philosophies to see it. Now for those who don't see it things that try to point it out can be helpful, but they are not required to see it. Also, a lot of people giving advice and instructions on how to see it haven't really seen what is there themselves. They just fell in love with the instructions or directions and so want others to fall in love with them and accept them as well.
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  #60  
Old 23-05-2018, 08:48 PM
Imzadi Imzadi is offline
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Originally Posted by Rain95
Also, a lot of people giving advice and instructions on how to see it haven't really seen what is there themselves. They just fell in love with the instructions or directions and so want others to fall in love with them and accept them as well.

Wow :)
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