True Self.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Within Silence

This true self sounds quite boring, too impartial and balanced, unmovable; what fun is life without bouncing uncontrollably between emotional extremes once in awhile?

Yep. It does sound all dry and remote, and if there's one problem I have with my spiritual discourse, it contains nothing that seems desirable, and hence is not appealing to anyone. I take care not to play on desire and produce temptation, but I say that the meditation typically involves a lot pain and also wonderful pleasures, and as the purification process is emotional, there will likely be severe storms arising as well much happier feelings. In my longer retreats I have the same emotional ups and down as I would in a normal day in the life, but am not distreacted and starkly conscious of everything as it moves through me, and this point of being aware is where so-called 'equanimity' is. The two parts, awareness and equanimity, are the core of the meditation, Vipassana as it is called in Buddhism. This means, one is not removed or remote from their sensation/emotion, but cultivation of equanimity enable a person to feel increasing level of intensity. On the healing spectrum of this it basically means being able to endure high levels of torment that couldn't be processed previously, as it changes and as it passes, and then is resolved for good. On the other side it enables more intensity of 'energy' and heights of bliss that one could not have taken in the past. This places equanimity, not as a control, or a distancing remoteness, but contrarily, the ability to allow the change of life to be 'as it is', and be fundamentally contented regardless of what sort of sense/emotion is currently changing, passing, and going away. I.e., one can feel more deeply and more intensely without becoming overwhelmed.

[RyanWind]

Originally Posted by Within Silence

This true self sounds quite boring, too impartial and balanced, unmovable; what fun is life without bouncing uncontrollably between emotional extremes once in awhile?

It's not in thoughts interest to tell you being thoughtless is great.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by RyanWind

It's not in thoughts interest to tell you being thoughtless is great.

Fair enough, but the subject mentioned was emotion, not thought.

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by RyanWind

This is true. Who is there to be impressed?

This is true. Who is there to be impressed?

[Within Silence]

Originally Posted by Gem

This means, one is not removed or remote from their sensation/emotion, but cultivation of equanimity enable a person to feel increasing level of intensity. On the healing spectrum of this it basically means being able to endure high levels of torment that couldn't be processed previously, as it changes and as it passes, and then is resolved for good. On the other side it enables more intensity of 'energy' and heights of bliss that one could not have taken in the past. This places equanimity, not as a control, or a distancing remoteness, but contrarily, the ability to allow the change of life to be 'as it is', and be fundamentally contented regardless of what sort of sense/emotion is currently changing, passing, and going away. I.e., one can feel more deeply and more intensely without becoming overwhelmed.

Gem-This ^^^ is very well said as I see it.

Suffering, or emotions serve a very needed & necessary purpose, they are not a mistake nor are they to be avoided as many people attempt to do through such spiritual practices. If anything, we are too be more sensitive not less, more in-tune not less, more flexible and yielding to "what is" not more resistant and ridged, and it is suffering which brings about the destruction of resistance and rigidity. I am not saying that we are to be moved from one emotional extreme to another like a ship thrown about on a stormy sea, but this did serve a purpose for a time did it not?

Thus, it seems that immense suffering acts as a catalyst to begin to see our way out of it, to seek for the cause of it, and then, when the cause dawns then also is the cure known, because one resides within the other, as "they" are "not two" but one.

Eventually, we must make our climb up the pendulums arm and reside at the top of the fulcrum; the pendulum that ever swings between this and that, giving the appearance of duality, which, for a time, as we begin at the bottom of the arm and are swung through the extremes of the illusion of duality we must suffer, and it is this suffering which then ignites the flame within the seeker to find a way out, to arise out of the abyss of duality. And so, the seeker begins its inner pilgrimage, and becomes aware that the higher one climbs up the pendulums arm away from dualistic concepts the less moved it is, and thus the seeker continues its climb, eventually reaching the summit, the fulcrum /center/balance/top of the pendulums arm, which, now it observes life as the great Eagle, from a heightened vantage point of equanimity; tranquil, unmoved and finally free from the bondage of duality, now it resides in everlasting peace.

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Gem

Yep. It does sound all dry and remote, and if there's one problem I have with my spiritual discourse, it contains nothing that seems desirable, and hence is not appealing to anyone. I take care not to play on desire and produce temptation, but I say that the meditation typically involves a lot pain and also wonderful pleasures, and as the purification process is emotional, there will likely be severe storms arising as well much happier feelings. In my longer retreats I have the same emotional ups and down as I would in a normal day in the life, but am not distreacted and starkly conscious of everything as it moves through me, and this point of being aware is where so-called 'equanimity' is. The two parts, awareness and equanimity, are the core of the meditation, Vipassana as it is called in Buddhism. This means, one is not removed or remote from their sensation/emotion, but cultivation of equanimity enable a person to feel increasing level of intensity. On the healing spectrum of this it basically means being able to endure high levels of torment that couldn't be processed previously, as it changes and as it passes, and then is resolved for good. On the other side it enables more intensity of 'energy' and heights of bliss that one could not have taken in the past. This places equanimity, not as a control, or a distancing remoteness, but contrarily, the ability to allow the change of life to be 'as it is', and be fundamentally contented regardless of what sort of sense/emotion is currently changing, passing, and going away. I.e., one can feel more deeply and more intensely without becoming overwhelmed.

"the ability to allow change of life to be "as it is" -this is the crux of it.

What you do in meditation I allow life to teach me the same principles. As a predominate feeler in the beginning, my feeling mode was/is saturated with the nature of emotions moving through life itself. So building this balance by allowing and opening to what was moving in me with various aspects of the worlds pain body, in some ways became my own. I allowed myself to enter into it more freely as reflections to show me where I was holding on in myself attached. And of course I don't have to leave home to do this. Life in everyway life is being through media/other life hit home in me ongoing until I began to notice that things were balancing out in myself. I became aware of clear feeling mode and not attaching through this process. I suppose you could call this waking/walking meditation.

Staying present with myself through various and harsh adverse situations not my own personally, became my own in me through the feeling mode and awareness of what was moving out there. This opened everything in me moving within. As harsh as it was, it was for me the way out of myself trapped in fear of looking at the world more directly, fear of looking at the world in myself more directly.
Even as many might say that I was exposing myself unnecessarily. I don't see it like this. I knew it was leading me out of the hole of being trapped by intense fears as a predominate feeler in other's pain and projections known and unknown to them at times. For me in feeling mode it was often all felt anyway and being reacted too. So for me this was important to deepen my own balance in everyway of this.

So now in feeling more balanced and not in fear mode leading me, my feeling mode is open, clearer and more balanced to move more freely. I challenge myself at times to clear out remnants in myself too. They often arise in subtle ways, but balance shows me they cease rather fast now.

Even as we might believe we have cleared/balanced out own painbody, related to our own upbringing and life, which is important in relation to building the beginning of balance. My painbody was also immersed in the world's pain too. It was all entangled at certain points to recognise more deeply in fears.

By allowing life to help me go deeper to the "Core of fears" it ultimately led me out into relating to other life to be able to live more fully and not be afraid of the world itself as it was too.

[RyanWind]

Originally Posted by sky123

the teachings of the Buddha, ...the physical body, feelings, thoughts, impulses, and ordinary consciousness are labelled as "non-Self" or "non-Soul" (anatman). In the final phase of his teaching career, the Buddha revealed that there exists within each sentient being an innermost essence, which knows of no change and no death. He called this "the True Self" or "True Soul" (satya-atman).

It is absolutely vital, however, that we should not mistake our worldly self, our ego, for this True Self, ... In no way must we think that we can understand our Soul by thought and reasoning alone. It is, in fact, "unthinkable" (acintya). It can only be contacted and "seen" when we have cleared away all the obscuring thoughts and emotions which screen it from our view.

Nice quotes.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by RyanWind

Oh so you read Eckhart Tolle and believe you have a world pain body in you? He is only one I know of that teaches about a "pain body." I wondered where you got your ideas since they are not Buddhist.

Tolle: The pain-body is my term for the accumulation of old emotional pain that almost all people carry in their energy field. Once the pain body has taken you over, you want more pain. You become a victim or a perpetrator. You want to inflict pain, or you want to suffer pain, or both. There isn't really much difference between the two. You are not conscious of this, of course, and will vehemently claim that you do not want pain. But look closely and you will that your thinking and behavior are designed to keep the pain going, for yourself and others.

In the Buddhist vernacular, this accumulation is referred to in terms of 'sankharas'. In the simplest terms, a sankara (as it is used in this context) is formed whenever reactivity based in aversion and/or desire occur. Some are menial and short lived, and the more severe of these can be understood as 'trauma'. The trick in meditation is not 'to get rid' of these, but to cease adding sankaras from this point forward. The old ones will rise to conscious awareness and pass through. The purification process is, therefore, in the most basic terms, consequential to the cessation of reactivity.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

"the ability to allow change of life to be "as it is" -this is the crux of it.

To be sure.

What you do in meditation I allow life to teach me the same principles. As a predominate feeler in the beginning, my feeling mode was/is saturated with the nature of emotions moving through life itself. So building this balance by allowing and opening to what was moving in me with various aspects of the worlds pain body, in some ways became my own. I allowed myself to enter into it more freely as reflections to show me where I was holding on in myself attached. And of course I don't have to leave home to do this. Life in everyway life is being through media/other life hit home in me ongoing until I began to notice that things were balancing out in myself. I became aware of clear feeling mode and not attaching through this process. I suppose you could call this waking/walking meditation.

Sure. My empathy puts me in touch with feelings of other beings, which I call 'feel with', but these are visceral through my own body, and some have theorised that such things are projections manifested to bring attention to my own issues, but personally, I don't think about the implications much at all, be it mine, yours or Bo Diddly's isn't the issue really as I see it, as the function of empathy is to bring feelings to light of conscious awareness, one way or another.

Staying present with myself through various and harsh adverse situations not my own personally, became my own in me through the feeling mode and awareness of what was moving out there. This opened everything in me moving within. As harsh as it was, it was for me the way out of myself trapped in fear of looking at the world more directly, fear of looking at the world in myself more directly.

Yes. I get the sense as I look out at it, it looks back at me, and that sense makes it all seem less harsh in a way. It makes looking seem like a more universal phenomena...

Even as many might say that I was exposing myself unnecessarily. I don't see it like this. I knew it was leading me out of the hole of being trapped by intense fears as a predominate feeler in other's pain and projections known and unknown to them at times. For me in feeling mode it was often all felt anyway and being reacted too. So for me this was important to deepen my own balance in everyway of this.

I guess protections are important, and there are very good reasons for keeping some doors closed, as the way I see it is, people, and I guess all people reach a point of limitation beyond which there is probably more harm than good, so I don't know, but the feeling builds up a lot of tension as one approached their limitations, and to my mind, the 'purification' (as I call it) is a process running at its own speed, but because my slant on meditation is the cultivation of equnimity, that balance itself is what enables the harder aspects to finish their natural course.

So now in feeling more balanced and not in fear mode leading me, my feeling mode is open, clearer and more balanced to move more freely. I challenge myself at times to clear out remnants in myself too. They often arise in subtle ways, but balance shows me they cease rather fast now.

True, balance leads to moving freely through... though still, things have to happen in their own sweet time. Awesome to hear that your sense of balance is such that it allows faster change, like, less resistance = more free flow, yet still, patience is the virtue in question I think.

Even as we might believe we have cleared/balanced out own painbody, related to our own upbringing and life, which is important in relation to building the beginning of balance. My painbody was also immersed in the world's pain too. It was all entangled at certain points to recognise more deeply in fears.

By allowing life to help me go deeper to the "Core of fears" it ultimately led me out into relating to other life to be able to live more fully and not be afraid of the world itself as it was too.

My comment is, if we go into this sort of work, work on balance alone, ad let everything else be consequential, because if balance is good and stable... that's the same as having less limitation, and my own life path has shown me that it tends to push the limitations well beyond what one thinks they can do, and that sense of balance tends to sit on the very edge of tipping over, and I've seen a few go over that edge in my time, which gets messy and complicated, so, always just a little more space to let things be within...

I have so much to resolve in life, and there's issues I'll take with me to the grave, but what is most essential of all is not to be a perfectly pure person, but to be the person that you are. The road has a 'process' as I call it, but 'you are here as you are, and there is no-one there at its imaginary end.

[RyanWind]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

"the ability to allow change of life to be "as it is" -this is the crux of it.

Originally Posted by Gem

To be sure.

The crux of what? That is not Buddhism, but then you both have said you are not Buddhists and don't follow Buddhism. In Buddhism, there is no "you" to allow something. That is ego or the false self.

My, me, I..... Not Buddhism.

Originally Posted by Gem

My empathy... I call 'feel with', ...my own body, ... I ....really as I see it, ....I get the sense as I look out at it, ...the way I see it is,...your sense of... I think.

In Zen, the practice is to be selfless. Not be a self trying to be selfless.