CONCORDE crash and Karma

[7luminaries]

Wow gents I just saw this thread has got onto quite an interesting discussion of karma, timelines, and conscious choices.
I hope I am not too late to the party to make a few comments.

1st...

Originally Posted by Greenslade

I remember - within the context of subjective experience - how as a time-travelling consciousness I went back and influenced my past self. And yes, I did think of false memory. For me it's glimpses of other perceptions of reality that change the rules because there - being as objective as I can be - is an instance of effect preceding cause.

So GS...you noted a future self influencing a past self and a false memory. But -- and I know this is a mind-bender -- I think what you may be recalling is from an instance of the universe that no longer exists. And since lucky you...you still recalled that key decision point or outcome from a future time in a "place" that no longer exists (or has been "overwritten")...you were able to choose differently in this go-round.

I know many of us do recall Mandela dying in prison and the entire free elections in SA held in his honour several years later. That instance of spacetime (the universe) is gone now and apparently "never happened" in this instance. And so things are somewhat different in this place. I am a smidge taller, for one, growing around 2" as an adult post-Mandela change whilst most other folks have stayed the same...so hey I got at least one concrete thing out of all this total reinstantiation thing Folks who haven't seen me in 15-20 years are often struck by it. Would it have happened regardless? Is it connected to all the healing work I've done since then? Who knows, but in retrospect, it's odd and I can only say it happened here...in this version of reality. If nothing else, it points to just how fluid the tapestry of our reality still is. But my consciousness is still me and still here...as is yours. So in a sense, there are many outcomes which occurred one way elsewhere (and now will seem like false or alternate memories) but which are still open to choice here. I will say this...it seems like deja vu happens less often now which may mean we have largely moved past the place of overlapping (overwritten) outcomes and have come back to (per usual) the place of unwritten outcomes, for which we must take total ownership. In the moment, it still always boils down to taking choices...to ownership and to taking conscious decisions.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

What doesn't time-travel, though, is our feelings....

And sometimes the whole point is that time doesn't change anything. That way we can tell what is changeless and what isn't.

Very movingly said. Quite true. The thing is to move past obstruction and resistance within ourselves and accept the truth of this. And that is not always easily, kindly, or smoothly done. Hence the stuff of life, and of karma, as this whole thread notes. Because the processing and growth that accrues to the eternal soul or consciousness is done here, in this physical realm...and that's why we come back. We come back because there's nothing for it, LOL...

Originally Posted by God-Like

The apple seed cannot experience the seed and the tree and the fruit of it unless there is a process involved and in effect .

Yes, that's exactly it. We need to take ownership, and that requires the experience. Both 1) experience of the cause and effect of the physical realm and 2) experience of the relational, timeless aspect of the spiritual realm as it permeates the physical realm. It often takes folks way too long to begin to take ownership (even within just the current lifetime, LOL...), and thus it also often takes quite a long time to own and accept the relational, timeless aspect of our souls and our existence, so repeated physical incarnation gives us the "time" to experience that slowly and to make it concrete in our lives...hopefully in ways that move toward healing and authentic love. Aeons of time and many rebirths, if needed.

Your nan also touched on the relational aspect regarding her work...she spoke more in terms of where her focus was and not that she'd be in meetings till 5 most days . Your nan is also showing us that wherever we "are", that's where we are most fully centred and immersed. But yet in another sense, it's true we are always everywhere at once and can, if need be, always connect to those other realms through the relational energies (your nan, your folks, others who have passed, etc.). Those strands or connections are ultimately at the core of what is "real" and timeless and when we own that in the physical realm, we move toward a deeper and more foundational awareness of this existence. Something to do with manifesting authentic love in this time and place -- including in the outer aspects such as day-to-day events, dinner and chores and all that -- but also in working with our inner aspects, such as acceptance of the relationships (even if some key connections such as parents or others are difficult or challenging).

Peace & blessings
7L

[Molearner]

[quote=7luminaries]Wow gents I just saw this thread has got onto quite an interesting discussion of karma, timelines, and conscious choices.
I hope I am not too late to the party to make a few comments.

/QUOTE]

7luminaries,

This is not to address any of your points I am just sharing your introduction by joining the party.....perhaps too late....:)

Perhaps some posters can address my question about karma. What about the collateral damage of karma ? It seems when discussions of karma are presented they are more in the vein of "what happens to me if I do this or that ?" But whatever happens to me as a result of karma seems to should also affect a multitude of people. If I was the first one to get the corona virus perhaps that was a result of karma......but if I spread that virus to the rest of the world is that something in their karma that allowed them to be exposed to it ?

Hard to wrap my mind around that. Maybe someone can address this.

[Molearner]

Furthermore, if anyone gives credence to my assumption that karma has collateral damage then does karma bear any similarity to the concept of original sin ?

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Molearner

7luminaries,

This is not to address any of your points I am just sharing your introduction by joining the party.....perhaps too late....:)

Perhaps some posters can address my question about karma. What about the collateral damage of karma ? It seems when discussions of karma are presented they are more in the vein of "what happens to me if I do this or that ?" But whatever happens to me as a result of karma seems to should also affect a multitude of people. If I was the first one to get the corona virus perhaps that was a result of karma......but if I spread that virus to the rest of the world is that something in their karma that allowed them to be exposed to it ?

Hard to wrap my mind around that. Maybe someone can address this.

For certain, it is an interwoven tapestry. Everyone's decisions matter and we all contribute to what is in each moment. We are all maximally responsible for what we intent/think/do/say...

The case you illustrate shows just how much it matters how and when we show up. Put very simply, you are more (i.e., toward maximally) responsible as the carrier...they are minimally responsible for existing nearby, LOL. Of course, they may still die and no, their karma didn't cause this.

It was one of many possibilities brought to light in the moment, one of which is you went out and about for hours or days whilst trending ill and slimed your stuff everywhere, thinking nothing of others (isn't this more the norm sadly? )...versus staying home and being uber-conscientious, LOL. This applies to many, many other things. This is living in a web of interbeing that is humanity and human society. Having limited leave or deadlines that won't wait for an epidemic (LOL) is a factor for some, for certain, and that spreads ownership up the chain, so to speak.

I don't at all agree with the thinking that masses have necessarily all signed on to die violently or with great pain or suffering (illness, starvation) because of their karma. When in fact it was because say, you were a super-spreader of a pandemic and went out and about, LOL... I reckon if it's true it's just as likely only for a key individual here or there and not for the masses impacted IMO.

Because much of that which impacts masses of humanity is simply caused by our own hand in various times and places either now or in the past. So the karma there is at the level of humanity and not the individual. IOW, humanity have the opportunity to impact many of these outcomes, and to limit or alter many of these (worst) outcomes in future -- so it's often largely down to our communal political will, our communal levels of awareness and commitment, our empathy and compassion, our ownership, and so on. Is it our karma to keep on acting badly as individuals or as a human race, and to keep letting opportunities go by? I would say that's mostly not our karma...that's mostly our decision to rise to it, or not.

For each individual, what we each experience is typically a complicated set of outcomes. It's more an ever-changing mix of everyone's input and varying degrees of responsibility and ownership for any given thing or situation. And depending on what is brought to bear and all the decisions we make and other factors at hand (much of which is out of our individual control), a range of possibilities comes to light, [ultimately] yielding the outcome in each moment for ourselves and others in our vicinity, nearer or farther.

It's not easy to explain. I wish I could visually sort of show you what I mean. But rest assured...everything and everyone matters. And the sum total of that in each moment is What Is, everywhere.

Peace & blessings
7L

Originally Posted by Molearner

If I was the first one to get the corona virus perhaps that was a result of karma......but if I spread that virus to the rest of the world is that something in their karma that allowed them to be exposed to it ?

How does any virus spread? Is there some force making it go from person to person or is it purely a 'mechanical' process? Is it your karma if you didn't know you had the virus and it was outwith your control? Or did you agree to this as part of your Life's Purpose?

If I punch you on the nose with the intention of being your lesson so you learn forgiveness but you hate me for it, what happens to karma then?

Originally Posted by Molearner

Furthermore, if anyone gives credence to my assumption that karma has collateral damage then does karma bear any similarity to the concept of original sin ?

What is 'damage' and who decides? The Original Sin was supposed to have been Adam and Eve eating the apple from the Tree of Knowledge, and God tossed them out of the Garden of Eden. The only trouble is that most of Genesis is based on Sumerian mythology and that's very different to the Biblical version.

What's the difference between karma and being at the behest of God/gods who have total control over our 'destinies/fates'?

[7luminaries]

GS...hello there!
BTW I came round to this thread late but I commented just above (#31) on your future self influencing your past self...very interesting, that.
Curious as to your thoughts on that...it's what came to my mind when I read your words.

Peace & blessings
7L

Originally Posted by God-Like

Hey :)


I am not heavily into the science of things regarding what can be proven or not, I am more of a hands on practical guy who notices a flower bloom or a ripe apple fall from it's branch at a certain stage of it's life's journey. You have said something similar in regards to this 'in that context it gives us an experience of growth and development' .

The apple seed cannot experience the seed and the tree and the fruit of it unless there is a process involved and in effect . The physical realm is the ideal environment and the apple seed has to abide by it's design, that is why you don't get a full grown tree from a seed in a blink of an eye isn't it ..

People can argue all day long (excuse the pun) that linear time is not real or true, but let them manifest a mature apple tree from a seed in the now moment . They can't .

Another funny thing that came to mind yonks ago is when my nan passed over to the world of spirit when I was about 11 years old. For some reason I started to put my thoughts out to her (wherever she was at the time) lol and I used to tell her about my day's at school.

Long story cut short, I had my first reading with a medium when I was 20 because at this point I was having lots of awakenings and visions, well my nan came through immediately and said in a lovingly way that I didn't need to keep talking to her everyday for her to know what has been going on in my life hehehe ..

She said in a nice way that she was extremely busy in the spirit world and she has her jobs to do .. Now when I hear all this new age 'now' moment stuff it's blown out of all proportion I would say in such a way where peeps think that there is some floating now moment that doesn't constitute movement and change that can be monitored /recollected ..

You see this brings forth the topic on the akashic records for every thought and deed is recorded and there requires an element of time in order for there to be such recordings .

So even the spirit world activity that doesn't entertain time as we know it there will still be a reference of time and this is why my nan said what she did because she was busy doing stuff. Peeps all the time can become absorbed in the moment and they don't know where the day has gone, this is a classic example of what I am saying, but while you were absorbed within the moment, you still was aware of what you were doing and you can recollect your day..

In regards to your question 'So if you are going back in time, how does that change karma? Can effect precede time?

Perhaps it is possible to create more karma by trying to go back in time to erase it . lol .

Isn't this the butterfly effect, when one course of action is changed to then create a similar outcome but in a different way ..

I don't see that one can 'get out' of anything in this way it just creates more of a mess further down the line ..

I see a process in effect and karma needs to either be worked through or transmuted which basically are the same thing ..


I appreciate the chat!!


x daz x

Hey again Daz


You got that bit right lol. Yep, I'm as practical as you are but at the same time there are things that just don't make sense, and karma is one of them. The seed turns into a tree not because there is some external force guiding its growth but because the right circumstances have come about to make it grow, it landed on the ground and it had the environment to grow and flourish. And yes, it does take years, the olive tree I bought about five years ago won't fit into its pot any more. I'm cool with that too because from an entire linear perspective, I bought it, then planted it, and the tree - and nature - did their thing. I'm good with that, it makes sense. It having some external guiding influence..... As far as I'm aware, no external influences made me decide to buy the tree. I can understand - again from a linear perspective - that I bought the tree, then I paid for it, then brought it home..... I get that, really. I can see a simple chain of events - cause and effect - that goes from "Hey Mrs G, fancy an olive tree?" to watching the birds perch there while they wait their turn for the feeder. The definition - one of them anyway - is cause and effect. It's a purely mechanical process as described by a guy and his boat. It's an observation of a chain of events through linear time. From a purely human perspective I'm OK with that, but from the same human perspective I'm not OK with some supernatural force making it happen. I can understand how, in linear time, there is a chain of events that begins with me deciding to reply to this thread and wanting to bang my head on the table. I'm also OK with perception being reality, but for me this is where the whole thing goes sideways because I've had experiences - as far as I can objectively make out - that time isn't linear. So if my perception of time is linear then karma is cause, effect and time in between, I can understand karma from that perspective. I can't understand cause and effect when I've had an experience of non-linear time and the effect has preceded the cause. I'm not even sure which one is the cause and which one is the effect.

So let's ask a different question because for me, the right answers aren't forthcoming. What is the nature of karma? Is it an external force of some kind, is it perception, is it something else?

There's a saying in mediumship - "All Spirit is twenty-five years old." Obviously that's not the literal meaning because Spirit has no age, but what it does mean is that consciousness has no colour and no shape, and to allow the mind to grasp it consciousness takes on an avatar. The avatar 'represents' consciousness. "Busy" to us is not "busy" to Spirit or vice versa so perhaps "busy" wasn't what your Nan literally meant. I don't think we could grasp how Spirit perceives time because Spirit's perception of space and relativity - and therefore time - is very different to ours.


But if we go back in time isn't what happens kamma-vipaka - the 'results' of intention and not karma? Are we talking about karma or kamma-vipaka?

If you are transmuting karma, what does that mean exactly? Because whatever you experience id your own perceptions and not the dictates of some external force. If I stick my tongue out at you, is the karma from you laughing any different from the karma of you taking offence? Either way, it's you that made it happen.

You're very welcome Daz. Sometimes it's nice to poke around in the undergrowth rather than be right.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

GS...hello there!
BTW I came round to this thread late but I commented just above (#31) on your future self influencing your past self...very interesting, that.
Curious as to your thoughts on that...it's what came to my mind when I read your words.

Peace & blessings
7L

Hey there 7L


Yeah I saw the post but it's going to take me a little longer than a couple of minutes to reply, and having a train of thought interrupted when it's full steam ahead is a pain nowadays because it takes longer to get steamed up. Thankfully there's the Calmer Sutra to indulge in.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

I'm not OK with some supernatural force making it happen.

So let's ask a different question because for me, the right answers aren't forthcoming. What is the nature of karma? Is it an external force of some kind, is it perception, is it something else?

Hey :)

Well karma as we have said is just a word that doesn't quite fit the bill in such a way where one requires the awareness had of the bigger picture . If you on one level put an ice lolly out in the sun then it's going to melt likewise if you create suffering with ill intent towards another then that will create an energy within you that will manifest in reflection of that same energy in some shape or form . Peeps can say there is an external source at play here that has created the natural laws or you can say God is all things including that which abides by them and experiences them . Another way to put it across is that when an open hearted loving peep see's their loved one's in turmoil they automatically reach out to them and try and help them . You could say what is this supernatural force that makes me feel this way and makes me respond in this way when it is simply the way it is based upon your current sense of self and other's in awareness . Without an emotional body one would not be able to be emotional, without certain hormonal responses and tear ducts we would not be able to cry at life, so in a way we have to base how we feel and why we do things from where we stand but encompassing the bigger picture also .

We are both in agreement that the physical - earth- plane / dimension is governed by it's own laws and some become null and void in other dimensions . How I like to see it however is it all about you . I remember at a time of deep suffering my mum, god bless her would say that I have created this suffering, it is my responsibility, it's no good blaming this or that or him or her, it all down to me at the deepest of levels . Inner peace, inner joy, inner love is only down to you to attain and this is why the universe is centred around you . There is only you . What comes up in life that is experienced is all about you that is being reflected off of every-one-thing else .

I am not sure in regards to your question 'What is the nature of karma'? is going to be answered correctly because there isn't really going to be a one type of answer that even defines karma in a way that will give it justice . In one way some refer to karma-less peeps as those that do God's will because it no longer becomes personal in nature for what one does and that in itself I would say sheds some light on the nature of karma in my eyes because the individual self is the homing beacon, it is the magnet, it is the hub of experience and like said reflects my thoughts on there is only you at the centre of the universe . So if for examples sake there is an energy with a peep that is consumed with guilt on some level, then the universe will always reflect upon that energy to certain degrees . If you work from a place where there is only you then you will see how this works .. This touches on the perceptional aspects that you asked about for there requires perception for karma to be played out . There requires reflection for karma to be played out otherwise you will not be able to relate the experience of what is happening to 'you' .

Originally Posted by Greenslade

If you are transmuting karma, what does that mean exactly? Because whatever you experience id your own perceptions and not the dictates of some external force. If I stick my tongue out at you, is the karma from you laughing any different from the karma of you taking offence? Either way, it's you that made it happen.

Transmuting karma is about changing the nature of it and it only works if one is totally sincere in regards to purifying oneself and loving oneself.

This is why you can get peeps sit on the mountain for years and not get anywhere, you can have meditators and yoga practitioners that are simply going through the motions and not connecting so to speak .

In regards to the tongue being poked out in relation to karma, yet again it boils down to intent doesn't it and it boils down to the energy behind the scenes, I can laugh out loud at videos on 'you've been framed' where peeps fall over or have a football hit them in the face, where is the intent to be cruel here? Where is the intent to make someone feel like a fool?

It is about intent and truth and justice for you can use a sword and cut out other's wicked tongues in such a way where the truth needs to be heard or recognised, you see for some a spiritual dude perhaps should always turn the other cheek and be seen to be sweetness and light, but the same can be said for those that stand their ground and be strong in regards to what is true .. There is no one formula here, but you can have two peeps doing the same thing/s and one would be creating karma and one would not .

Being true to oneself is key as always and being true to oneself has many levels to it and this is somewhat a grey area because one needs to know self in it's truer sense in order to have a true expression lol .


x dazzle x


as an edit, When speaking of karma in this way I am speaking along the more negative traits of karma for in one way there can be no escape from karma because karma is just the results of one's thought and actions and there can be nothing but good karma being created on one hand .

Beyond karma would be beyond individual intent .

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Yes, that's exactly it. We need to take ownership, and that requires the experience. Both 1) experience of the cause and effect of the physical realm and 2) experience of the relational, timeless aspect of the spiritual realm as it permeates the physical realm. It often takes folks way too long to begin to take ownership (even within just the current lifetime, LOL...), and thus it also often takes quite a long time to own and accept the relational, timeless aspect of our souls and our existence, so repeated physical incarnation gives us the "time" to experience that slowly and to make it concrete in our lives...hopefully in ways that move toward healing and authentic love. Aeons of time and many rebirths, if needed.



Peace & blessings
7L

Hey :)

As the saying goes you have to be in it to win it lol ...

There is so much that makes sense after the event or after the physical experience has ended but in a way it's a little too late by then, but it can't be helped in many instances because there simply isn't the awareness present at the time of asking .

This is why as you and I and many know to understand that peeps come back time and time again until the levels of awareness are present in order to balance the books within experience of life .. and within these experiences one begins to understand the nature of self in reflection of all things ..

Taking responsibility or ownership as you put it is a big thing as things go and it sounds easier said than done for if everyone lived by this self measure the world would be a different place than it is now .


x daz x