Talmud

I started reading the talmud the other day and it seems very racist,etc. why do so many holy books have to have good and evil in them?.

Most fairy tales need a big bad wolf...;)

which part seems racist to you, NIRVANA? I'm not familiar with any of those passages.

Originally Posted by Yamah

which part seems racist to you, NIRVANA? I'm not familiar with any of those passages.

This is not just having a go at the talmud.The bible and koran also contain good and also evil in them.




http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bfb_1325520825

[psychoslice]

All scriptures were proberly written by many ignorant and superstitious people, and thats the way it comes out of them, we need to be above them and see the truth within their words, or with our on inner desernment rewrite the words them self to have meaning to us, don't be chained to someone else's words believing they came from a god.

THIS video is your source? Come on man, this video is an obvious one sided christian propaganda video. It takes everything out of context and presents seemingly harsh and shocking statements to prove a point. I will go through all of the statements it pulls from the talmud and other sources and ignore all of the narrators commentary:

1) If a man kills another man through indirect means he cannot be prosecuted with the death penalty.
A: Firstly, this is not racist. It refers to any indirect killing. It's not even a bad thing according to western society, it merely proves how strict the stipulations for execution in the talmud are.

2) Adultery doesn't cover sex with a minor, the wife of a minor or the wife of a heathen.
A: Because these are covered under other laws!

3) If you have sex with your slave girl it isn't rape and you are only obligated for having sex out of wedlock.
A: OK, first of all, any mention of sexual laws is going to stir up some emotions. It is much harder to keep a clear head when speaking about things like 'what is the law with regards to rape of children" and such. Understand that these laws must be approached with a clear head and looked at logically, just like any other law. The same goes with slavery. The fact is that both rape and slavery are wrong and the talmud does not promote either of those acts, it merely outlines what response the court should take if such a case presents itself.

4) Sexual relations with children under 3.
A: OK. I have to admit that when I learned this section of the talmud, a few times I was ready to throw up. They discussed things in this section that I didn't want to learn about. But as with everything, context is everything. Furthermore, the great sages were able to make the emotional separation necessary to discuss these matters logically, something I wasn't able to do.

The first thing to remember is that nobody is saying 'go have sex with three year old children'. It is wrong, forbidden and punishable and everybody knows it. As with everything else, they are investigating the situation deeply to find out what should be done if a situation arises, exactly which laws are being transgressed, what punishment should be enacted and what the status of both individuals are. Lets go through the ones mentioned in the video.

It is permitted to marry a girl under three years of age: Here they are discussing when an arranged marriage can be made. There are four phases of a person's life according to Jewish Law: Baby (0-3), Child (3-12/13), Teenager(12/13-18), Adult(18+). One can only be fully married from the age of 12 for girls or 13 for boys. 12 or 13 was considered young back then but still marriageable, by ALL cultures - so don't view this from a modern eye. It is known that a marriage can be arranged when they are still a child. What they are discussing here is if an arranged marriage can be made with a baby of either sex.

Virginity returns to a girl under three years: That's talking about that status of the girl. If she was raped while under three years of age the tissues within the vagina grow back so she is not considered to be a rape victim and is still considered a virgin. It is not saying 'it's ok to rape three year old girls'.

Sex with a little boy isn't considered a sexual act: A sexual act in Judaism is between men and women. This rabbi's opinion is that sex between man and man (or man and boy) fall under either the headings of Homosexuality or Masturbation depending on the exact nature of the activity, both of which are forbidden.

5) Jews are Men and Gentiles are Barbarians
A: I'm not familiar with the 'Jewish Encyclopedia' or this passage within it so I can't comment directly. One thing to keep in mind is that anything found in english is a translation and, depending on who is translating it, different meanings can be given to different passages.

6) The gentile is not the neighbor of the Jew. Because they refused the Torah, God transferred their property rights the the Jews.
A: Again, I don't know what this is talking about specifically, but I speculate that these are referring to a Gentile's status within Israel. The land of Israel belongs to the Jewish people, thus said God. Thus a Gentile cannot own land within Israel. They are allowed to live in Israel if they like and rent property - just not own it. Gentiles can own whatever they want outside of Israel.

7) A Jew who sues a gentile wins and a gentile who sues a Jew loses.
A: I'm not familiar with this ruling so I can't comment on it. I suspect it's speaking about a specific case. It's true that Jews and Gentiles have different rulings on different matters since the body of law which covers Jews i far stricter than that of Gentiles. Furthermore, Gentiles are not to included in many positive commandments which require a Jew to go out of their way, such as returning lost objects or breaking Shabbat to help them. As far as I am aware, however, they are granted all the basic human rights and are treated fairly within law. Thus, there is obviously something within this ruling that is being left out from the video which would put it into context.

8) Teaching Torah to a Gentile is worthy of death.
A: Because it is a waste of time. The Torah, in general, doesn't apply to gentiles, thus they have no reason to learn it. The tractates which apply to gentiles are allowed to be taught to them, being those which speak about the seven noahide laws, but the rest is Jewish law which was given to us to follow.

9) The best of gentiles deserves death.
A: Not familiar with this specific quote but most likely speaking about the idolatrous gentiles (which at the time was the vast majority of them). Righteous Gentiles, of which there were always a few, are always an unmentioned exception to many statements.

10) Thank you God for not making me a gentile.
A: We view Jews and Gentiles differently, yes. We believe that we have more responsibilities in this world and thus are granted a greater potential role in serving God. This statement can be understood as saying "Thank you God for giving me a greater opportunity to serve you". It is not the same as saying "Thank you God for not making me a cripple". And even if that were the case - cripples are still people and are afforded basic rights and respects, even though there are things they can't do.

11) Mary was a *****. Jesus was a *******.
A: She was. He was. Does anyone REALLY buy the 'mommy I swear I never had sex, I don't know HOW I got pregnant' story?

12) Jesus was a horrible person who used black magic and died an appropriately harsh death. He is being punished in Gehinom and all his followers who die will join him there.
A: He was. He was trying to lead the Jewish people away from God and towards Idolatry. For the past 2,000 years his followers continued to do the same - persecuting the Jewish people and forcing us to convert on penalty of death.

Note that nowhere within Jewish law does it say we must convert people or kill them. In fact, we are supposed to turn away potential converts unless they are completely serious. We are not at war with unbelievers like Christians or Muslims, we serve God and do so quietly and humbly. Any who wish understand what it means to serve God we are happy to teach, Jew or non-Jew. But we do not go out to them, they must come to us. Those who are jealous, ignorant or evil we will turn away or ignore, not kill in 'holy crusades' as other religions do. /end tangent.

13) A gentile who keeps Shabbat deserves death.
A: Because the Sabbath ritual was given to the Jews. It is our most sacred gift and sacred duty to God. Potential converts keep Shabbat mostly but make sure to break it at least once by lighting a match or something. Is this really the most racist law on the list?

14) The new testament is more dangerous to the Jews than pagan texts.
A: This is true. Because Christianity uses the Torah as its base, transitioning to Christianity is easier than transitioning to paganism making it far more alluring and dangerous. We hate christians. After all the suffering they have caused us, shouldn't we? Christianity is a perversion of our beliefs and practices. They insist on killing and converting us. Should we love them for that? We are not a 'turn the other cheek' religion. If someone hates us we are not obligated to love them. If someone attacks us we are obligated to defend ourselves.

[psychoslice]

Thank god I don't follow all that rubbish.

NIRVANA: it's been a while, I'm wondering if you have anything you would like to respond with?